Evidence of meeting #20 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recruiting.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Tyrone Pile  Chief, Military Personnel, Department of National Defence
Wendy Loschiuk  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Roger MacIsaac  Director General, Recruiting, Department of National Defence
Linda Colwell  Director General, Personnel Generation Policy, Department of National Defence

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I call to order the meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), chapter 2, “National Defence--Military Recruiting and Retention” of the May 2006 Report of the Auditor General of Canada.

We have with us today the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser. Accompanying her is Hugh McRoberts, the Assistant Auditor General, and Wendy Loschiuk, principal.

From the Department of National Defence we have Rear Admiral Tyrone Pile, chief, military personnel; Brigadier General Linda Colwell, director general of personnel generation policy; and Commodore Roger MacIsaac, director general of recruiting.

I want to welcome you, Mrs. Fraser, and your personnel.

Mr. Pile, Ms. Colwell, Mr. MacIsaac, welcome to the committee meeting.

Before we ask for opening statements from you, Mrs. Fraser, I'd like to spend about five minutes of the committee's time, so we can get it off our plate, to review, approve, or change, if necessary the minutes of the subcommittee on agenda and procedure that was held yesterday. The minutes have been circulated.

In paragraph one we talked about committee business and proposed schedule. But in the third paragraph, under “Proposed Schedule”, I'd like to add to the minutes, in a friendly amendment, after 2006, “or such shorter time as determined by the committee”. That was clearly decided upon at the meeting.

Are there any comments on the minutes of the subcommittee of agenda and procedure?

3:20 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Excusez-moi. Just repeat that, please.

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I would like the words added, after 2006, “or such shorter time as determined by the committee”.

Are there any other comments on the minutes? If not, the chair would entertain a motion that the subcommittee minutes be agreed to. It is moved by Monsieur Laforest.

(Motion agreed to)

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, colleagues. We're going to move to the general meeting now. I would ask the Auditor General to present her opening statement.

3:25 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are very pleased to be here today to discuss our status report on the Department of National Defence's efforts to recruit and retain men and women in the regular forces. As you mentioned, I am accompanied today by Hugh McRoberts, Assistant Auditor General; and Wendy Loschiuk, principal for our defence audits.

The audit work for the status report was completed in January 2006. In this audit we examined the progress made by National Defence in addressing the recruiting and retention problems that were noted in our 2002 audit. At that time, we were concerned about the declining numbers of trained regular force personnel, which represents the amount of staff available for duty. This decline occurred as the intake of new recruits fell and the number of members leaving the military rose.

As you know, National Defence and the Canadian Forces require an effective and trained workforce in order to perform the military tasks they are asked to do. Indeed, stress due to a shortage of members became evident when the department reported in its 2004-05 performance report that an operational pause was necessary for it to regenerate.

I am pleased to report that National Defence has achieved satisfactory progress in addressing our concerns reported in 2002. By 2005, it had stopped the decline in the number of trained and effective members and was actually showing a small increase. We looked at the planning it did to establish the annual recruiting and training numbers and found it to be sound.

Since 2002, the department has come very close to achieving its recruiting targets each year. At the time of our status report, the department was working towards a national recruiting strategy to bring more focus and cohesion to its recruiting efforts and was working on performance measures for 2007 to help it assess the success of its recruiting efforts.

The Department was also working on attrition. It conducted surveys to better understand why people were leaving the military and changed its terms of service to better meet its needs. Although results from these efforts are less evident, I am encouraged by the Department's efforts to better understand this problem.

As well, National Defence has taken action to improve its military human resources management although more could be done to improve its human resources information.

As you know, however, I did raise concerns about the Canadian Forces recruiting process because problems that do persist could jeopardize plans to expand the military. Despite its progress in recruiting, many members continue to leave, with the result that while the trained effective strength has not declined, it has not increased by very much either. Because of the rate of attrition, the net number of trained and effective personnel resulting from bringing in 20,000 new members since 2002 is only about 700. This is a concern if the military is to grow significantly over the next several years. When starting this Status Report, we expected to see an increase in the number of people who were trained and operational, so that the military could alleviate shortages in key occupations. We have stated instead that many of the key military occupations that were suffering shortages in 2002 was still short in 2005.

National Defence needs to identify what it should do to keep its members. About 80% of the military population is in a high attrition group, meaning they either are in the first few years of military service or could soon be eligible to retire.

The recruiting process itself has leakage, some of which is to be expected and some of which is unnecessary. The system needs to identify and recruit suitable candidates in a timely and effective manner, as about 28% of applicants abandon the process because of delays. As well, methods need to be found to make a military career more attractive to underrepresented groups, those being women, aboriginal persons, and visible minorities.

The system should enable the military to grow, but at the time of our audit, we found that intake was well below what was needed for the Canadian Forces to expand.

National Defence also needs to be able to assure itself that it is recruiting the best candidates, but the measures it uses have not been validated to show they predict military suitability or to show that all recruiters are using them in the same way. I am glad to note that the Department agrees that it needs to validate these tools and plans to finish this work by the end of 2008. It also has replied that it is establishing a Recruiting Training Centre in 2007, which is also a positive step.

National Defence also needs a training system that can handle and increase in recruited members. While the basic training system has expanded, there were still some difficulties on the next level for occupation training. The limited capacity of the training system at this level causes bottlenecks and is a blockage to getting skilled people into operations when and where they are needed.

Mr. Chair, since our audit, National Defence has gone through some changes and now plans to increase by some 13,000 regular force members. This committee may wish to find out more about how the department ensures that it is bringing in good candidates who have the right skills and the profiles the military needs; how the department ensures that its investments in recruiting, training, and retention contribute to the long-term sustainability of the military population; and finally, when an action plan will be in place to bring about the necessary improvements.

Mr. Chair, this concludes our remarks on military recruiting and retention.

We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee members might have.

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mrs. Fraser, for your excellent comments, as usual.

I'm now going to call upon Admiral Pile for his opening remarks.

Mr. Pile, I know you've tabled a fairly lengthy report. Obviously, you've put a lot of time and effort into it, and I want to thank you for that. However, we do have a rule that we normally adhere to. We'd like to keep the opening comments to within five minutes. So I'd like you to paraphrase your report, if possible. We can attach it to the minutes, if you wish. There's no problem doing that. There's no way you can read this in five minutes, so I'd like you to keep your opening remarks to five minutes or less.

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Rear-Admiral Tyrone Pile Chief, Military Personnel, Department of National Defence

I've done a quick audit, Mr. Chair, and I will keep it to about five minutes.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, lady, gentlemen. It is a pleasure to appear before you today to provide some commentary on the Auditor General's report on recruiting and retention to outline some of the activities we are currently embarking upon and to share with you some of the success we are achieving as we progress with force expansion for the Canadian Forces.

Although my focus will be on the successes we have made in addressing the Auditor General's recommendations, I will also highlight some challenges that still remain. Regarding the Auditor General's report, I must first note that the report is an accurate reflection of the state of play as it existed for the 2002 to 2005 period covered.

The Auditor General's team noted our considerable progress made since the last report in 2002 and correctly pointed out some areas where we did not progress as well or as quickly as intended.

The report itself centres on four key issues: recruiting, retention, retention strategies, and the need for clarity on responsibilities and authority with regard to personnel management and what we call personnel generation. Allow me to make a few comments on each of these issues, commencing with recruiting.

It is important to point out that the years covered in this most recent report were pre-force expansion. Indeed, the 2003 to 2005 period was one in which the Canadian Forces was stabilizing after years of downsizing, followed by a short, sharp spike in recruiting and a period of planned, slow increase to achieve a more reasonable trained effective strength. Trained effective strength is basically our measure of Canadian Forces members who are trained to deployment level and who are available for deployment.

In fiscal year 2005-06 we commenced what has become known as the first tranche of force expansion. The first force expansion requirement, the one on which we based the 2005-06 strategic intake plan, required an increase of 5,000 regular force over five years. We achieved 106% of our strategic intake plan last year, effectively increasing the strength of the Canadian Forces by more than 1,000. Over the course of this fiscal year 2005-06, a larger force expansion was announced. This new plan will see the Canadian Forces move to a total paid strength of approximately 75,000 regular force. This strategy will see the Canadian Forces grow in phases, with a first step to reach a total paid strength of 70,000 regular force by fiscal year 2010-11.

I have recently given direction to begin processing applicants using new protocols designed to increase the efficiency of our recruiting system while maintaining Canadian Forces standards. The new protocols are designed to move from the sequential applicant processing system used during previous years of zero growth and/or downsizing to a system of concurrent steps. For example, criminal record and credit checks have been moved forward to occur while verification of new applicant information or electronic verification of service for applicants with prior military service is being conducted.

Advertising plays a huge role in the attraction process. After all, if people do not know we are hiring, they are less likely to apply. On the subject of advertising, I must admit that we do not have scientific performance measurements that show the return on investment for advertising dollars spent. I can say, however, that advertising campaigns do increase awareness, and when campaigns are running there are more individuals showing interest and more applicants. As well, experience shows that about one month after advertising stops, interest and applications decline.

My colleagues in the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand report similar results. The Canadian Forces advertising budget was recently increased from $5 million to $15.6 million, which is similar to a comparable allied nation such as Australia.

With respect to retention, we continue to develop and build a retention strategy with a view to enhancing a Canadian Forces culture of retention. Performance measures for this strategy remain elusive because of the wide range of activity included under the retention rubric. From quality of life initiatives to fair compensation and education and training opportunities, to family and member support initiatives, we know that all of these types of initiatives contribute to establishing a two-way commitment that is essential for creating and sustaining a culture of retention.

Over time, we have maintained an overall attrition rate of approximately 6.5%, a rate that is the envy of our allies. If anything, these rates are at the lower limits of the healthy attrition required to ensure force renewal.

To establish conditions for success, the military human resources group has undergone internal reorganization consistent with the Chief of the Defence Staff's principles, in that we have established a command-centric, operationally focused entity, known today as the Military Personnel Command, led by the chief of military personnel, the position I fill. Internally, we have reorganized to focus on specific lines of operations and to separate policy from service delivery. This new structure is more in keeping with the military personnel generation function and provides the command-centric view so necessary for providing clear direction.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Admiral, you're into the thing by six and a half minutes. Perhaps if you have a few concluding thoughts, we'll give you another fifteen seconds or so.

3:35 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

These complete my introductory remarks.

3:35 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:35 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

I wish to thank you for your interest.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

You're right on time. We thank you very much.

Again, I want to thank you for your opening remarks and I want to thank you for your appearance here today.

Colleagues, we're going to start the first round of questions. Again, I would caution members to keep their questions short, concise, and relevant; we do not need three- to four-minute preambles. We're not here to discuss foreign affairs policy; we're here to discuss the Auditor General's report.

And to the witnesses, we'd like the answers to be—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Are you trying to muzzle members of Parliament?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Yes, I know. Certainly, if that's what you call it, that is what it is.

3:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

And I thought freedom of speech prevailed in this place!

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Not in this committee; it does in other committees.

3:40 p.m.

A voice

It's a bad influence for the government.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

And witnesses, I'd like you to keep your answers short and to the point. We discourage long dissertations.

Having said that, we're going to go to Monsieur Proulx, pour huit minutes, s'il vous plaît.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Ms. Fraser and Mr. Pile, welcome to both you and your teams.

How are you, Ms. Fraser?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I am very well, thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Excellent.

Ms. Fraser, in your audit follow-up, did you focus in particular on bilingualism or on the language used by those applicants recruited? I am asking this question because I have heard complaints that it is harder for a French-speaking Canadian that it is for an English-speaking Canadian to pass the exams and assessment interviews. Have you had the opportunity to focus on that specific area?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Mr. Chair, that is not an area we audited in this particular audit. I think that that is probably more a matter for the Commissioner of Official Languages than it is for us. We audited the overall recruitment and retention system, but did not focus on specifics such as bilingualism, for example.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

But in reviewing retention methods, did you not consider the reasons for non-retention? Did you not have the opportunity to look at why it is difficult to keep employees?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Actually, we did. We looked at the surveys the Department conducted with the Canadian Forces, and it was not clear that that was an important factor. I think that there were issues around families which came out of the survey.

Ms. Loschiuk may be able to elaborate.