Evidence of meeting #41 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
We very much adhere to the rules, and there are some fairly stringent sanctions for anybody who would ever go there.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
This is a quote from the audit: “...the problems we found were not due to an absence of controls but were due to management overriding controls”.
4:35 p.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
There's no policy that allows that, and again, that was one of the subjects of both the internal investigation and the criminal investigation. There is no permission, tacit or otherwise, to override Treasury Board rules. As a matter of fact, we are vigilant with regard to Treasury Board rules.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Commissioner, you have given Parliament your undertaking as commissioner that you will not be overriding what I consider to be normal financial controls in the future.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Excuse me. I'm sorry, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.
Mr. McRoberts has indicated that he wants a few seconds to correct the record on a point.
Mr. McRoberts.
4:35 p.m.
Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I apologize. But it's been drawn to my attention that in presenting the opening statement in paragraph 5, I apparently had a senior moment and indicated the amount was $4.3 million. The correct amount is $3.4 million, as stated in the chapter. I thought it was important that there be no confusion on the record about that important number.
Thank you.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. George, where is the original whistle-blower, Ms. Denise Revine, now?
4:35 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
She is still an employee of the RCMP.
4:35 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
She works within the NCPC. She's doing work on a specific file, and she continues to be an employee.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, she's teleworking, and she comes into the office when she is ready to bring in a certain amount of work.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
She's actually been removed in a constructive way and is being paid, but she is sitting at home at this time. Her superior was Mr. Macaulay.
In August 2003 you transferred Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay from his position and seconded him to the Department of National Defence. Prior to that transfer, Mr. Macaulay confirmed allegations of wrongdoing regarding the RCMP pension outsourcing project in writing and in person with Commissioner Zaccardelli. Who ordered this transfer? Was it you or Mr. Zaccardelli?
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mr. Chair, may I please make a point of correction in regard to Ms. Revine?
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Ms. Revine had health issues. I believe that on her doctor's orders she has been precluded from working within the office, and I believe there are issues there. We have accommodated her, and, as I said, she has been working from home.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I find all these coincidental situations quite interesting. Staff Sergeant Frizzell is physically removed from his office, his files and computer are seized, and you said he had health issues. Ms. Denise Revine, the original whistle-blower, is removed and at home these days with health issues. Mr. Macaulay is removed after bringing to the commissioner's attention the wrongdoing that was going on. Could you please answer the question on who made the decision?
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I will certainly answer that question. If I may, I'll give you some context.
When these issues were in the air several years ago, I requested a meeting with Commissioner Zaccardelli. I actually requested that Chief Superintendent Macaulay accompany me to give a full explanation as to what his knowledge was of the allegations that were floating out there. He accompanied me and, at that time, he did have an opportunity to speak.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Who made the decision after the meeting to have him removed?
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
At the meeting, it became clear that certain information or knowledge existed and it had not been brought forward to the commissioner in what was seen to be a timely fashion.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Who made the decision to have Mr. Macaulay removed? You're not answering the question.
4:40 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I will answer the question.
We have many opportunities in the RCMP for members and employees to go on secondments. It was felt at that time by the then commissioner—
4:40 p.m.
Liberal