Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was zaccardelli.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dominic Crupi  As an Individual
Jim Ewanovich  As an Individual
Giuliano Zaccardelli  Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Ron Lewis  Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Fraser Macaulay  Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I would like to call the meeting to order at this time.

I want to welcome everyone here. Colleagues, members, witnesses, pursuant to Standing Order 108, this is a meeting on chapter 9 of the November 2006 Report of the Auditor General of Canada, on the Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension and insurance administration.

Before we start with the witnesses, there are a couple of items I want to address. There's some confusion as to the role that this committee plays in our parliamentary system, and the role that other investigative bodies play, including the courts. I'm going to read a prepared statement on the whole issue of parliamentary privilege, just to get this on the record, because it is very important:

There is considerable Parliamentary, public, and media attention in the current proceedings of the Public Accounts Committee. There may also be a lack of sufficiently precise information as to the exact nature and manner of these proceedings. Therefore, at the outset of today's sitting of the Committee, I would like to sketch out some of the ground rules under which I consider our work to be conducted.

The Public Accounts Committee is a creature of the House of Commons; it is not a court of law. Therefore, the nature of the Committee and of its proceedings is parliamentary, not judicial. The rules of procedure of House of Commons Committees such as this one, the rights and powers of its members, and in particular the rights and obligations of witnesses before the Committee are guided by the branch of constitutional law known as the law of parliamentary privilege.

Pursuant to parliamentary privilege, witnesses who are asked to appear are obliged to do so, as if they had been subpoenaed before a court. Pursuant to parliamentary privilege, while witnesses are, in usual circumstances, not required to be sworn in, they do have the obligation to be truthful in response to the questions addressed to them and to give complete answers, as if they had been sworn in. There should be full and frank disclosure.

And I should point out today that the committee has adopted a policy that in this particular hearing everyone is going to be sworn in.

Witnesses whose testimony before the Committee is believed not to be truthful may become the subject of proceedings in contempt of Parliament or in perjury, at the behest of the Committee itself.

It is very important to note that testimony given by witnesses to the Committee speaks for itself. It is one of the fundamental principles of parliamentary privilege that testimony given before a committee can neither be used in any other forum, such as a court of law, nor can its truthfulness be questioned in another forum, such as a judicial inquiry or a court of law. This principle is a factor of the independence of Parliament and the courts and of their separation from each other. The counterpart of this principle is that lack of truthfulness or lack of complete answers in committee proceedings will not absolve witnesses from their responsibilities to the Committee.

The Committee will instruct the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel of the House of Commons to advise the Committee whenever there is doubt as to the truthfulness or completeness of testimony and second to ensure, through whatever steps may be necessary, that testimony given before this Committee is not used in judicial or other such proceedings.

In other words, the committee will, as it has in the past, protect its parliamentary privileges.

That's just a brief thumbnail sketch of the nature of these proceedings. Again, as I indicated in my opening statement, the committee has made a policy decision to swear everyone in, so I'm going to ask the clerk to swear the witnesses in at this point in time. We are then going to go right to the opening statements.

Mr. Williams.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Since you're talking about parliamentary privilege, I have a point of privilege that I myself would like to raise.

Do you want to do the swearing in first?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I think we will, yes.

3:30 p.m.

Dominic Crupi As an Individual

I, Dominic Crupi, do solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is, according to my religious belief, unlawful, and I do also solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3:30 p.m.

Jim Ewanovich As an Individual

I, Jim Ewanovich, do solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is, according to my religious belief, unlawful, and I do also solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3:30 p.m.

Giuliano Zaccardelli Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual

I, Giuliano Zaccardelli, do solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is, according to my religious belief, unlawful, and I do so solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3:30 p.m.

Ron Lewis Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual

I, Ron Lewis, do solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is, according to my religious belief, unlawful, and I do also solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3:30 p.m.

C/Supt Fraser Macaulay Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

I, Fraser Macaulay, do solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is, according to my religious belief, unlawful, and I do also solemnly, sincerely, and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Williams, you have a point of order?

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

No, it's a point of privilege, Mr. Chairman.

In these last few weeks, while we've had a break, my name has been in the media. This was not by myself, Mr. Chairman; it has actually been by another member of the committee, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj. For example, on the CBC morning news on March 29, he stated, and I quote:

It's incomprehensible. When you take a look at the allegations, month after month and motion after motion in front of the public accounts committee, they blocked, including Mr. Williams. It's incomprehensible. What were they hiding?

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj has gone on at great length in the media, Mr. Chairman, to talk about me blocking the investigation into the RCMP.

I would like to quote, Mr. Chairman, from the February 26 public accounts committee testimony, where I said:

We had a hearing with the Commissioner of the RCMP and the chief of police for the Ottawa Police Service. They told us that nobody had benefited from the misaccounting of the funds in the pension fund. There was no evidence that they felt they could use to go to court to obtain a prosecution. This is with about 16 people being assigned to this case over a number of months. Therefore, I don't know what we can do that they couldn't do.

I continued on, Mr. Chairman, to say:

I just have one final point, Mr. Chairman, and it is that with perhaps one exception, if the letter comes back from the RCMP saying there was some serious mal-administration regarding the removal of Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell from the case, then I'm prepared to revisit. At this point in time, though, I think we'll just have to say we're done with it.

Mr. Chairman, I have no problem with Mr. Wrzesnewskyj having his point of view. Whether it is correct or erroneous, that is up to him to defend it. But when he uses my name, Mr. Chairman, to bring the spotlight to himself, to try to claim that he was the architect of this investigation when he knew that nobody else appeared to be in command of the facts that he had.... He didn't share them with us. He didn't use the opportunity to enlighten us. And now he takes my name and uses it as if I was trying to block this investigation. That is completely false, Mr. Chairman.

I would ask that you ask Mr. Wrzesnewskyj to withdraw his remarks and apologize for the remarks he has been saying in the media and taking my name in vain.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.

I'm going to ask for a brief response from Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, if he so chooses.

However, I will point out what I believe you probably already know, Mr. Williams. This committee has no power over privilege. That is a matter that would have to be dealt with by the House.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, do you have a brief response?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Mr. Chairman, I disagree. If this committee feels there's a breach, we report it to the House.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

You can report it yourself, too.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

I know, but this committee can, too.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, Mr. Williams has made several allegations.

The record will show that as far back as the first weeks of December I had motions before this committee that attempted to get at the matter at hand and to get at the documentation. The record will also show that Mr. Williams often took the charge in preventing those motions from going forward. The Conservative members of the committee, as a bloc, continually voted against these.

And he's made allegations that I was privy to information that I did not share. In fact, the record will show that I tabled a synopsis of the various and very serious allegations that have been made. Notwithstanding having those documents before them, Mr. Williams and the Conservative members on this committee continued to block....

Mr. Williams does have other avenues available to him. Right now we have another matter at hand, and I suggest we get on with the work that is on the agenda.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Mr. Williams.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj continues to speak these accusations that I continually blocked the investigation. He says it's a matter of record. Therefore, I would ask that Mr. Wrzesnewskyj bring to this committee the record that shows I've continued to block, because that is absolutely false and misleading and untrue.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Okay, that's—

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

If I could quickly respond to that, I believe the voting record clearly demonstrates how Mr. Williams has proceeded in this manner.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

My point, Mr. Chairman, is that he has to bring that allegation to the committee and point out, on the record, where on the record I did that, because it's not on the record. The only time I had any opinion, I mentioned it and I read it, saying that if there are facts to support it, I will support the investigation. There was no other time that I voted. I don't sit on the steering committee and I don't decide the agenda of this committee. For Mr. Wrzesnewskyj to drag my name through the mud in the media is just unacceptable.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chair—

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

No, I'm sorry, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj. We're going to move on here. If someone wants to bring a matter of privilege to the House, they're entitled to do so. You can or Mr. Williams can. But we're going to go to the witnesses.

Colleagues, we're very pleased to have with us today Giuliano Zaccardelli, former Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; Jim Ewanovich, of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay, who was with us at the previous hearing; retired Staff Sergeant Ron Lewis, who was with us at the last hearing; and Dominic Crupi.

On behalf of the committee, I want to extend a warm welcome to each and every one of you.

We are not hearing opening statements from Mr. Macaulay or Mr. Lewis, of course, but we have opening statements from Mr. Zaccardelli, from Mr. Ewanovich, and from Mr. Crupi.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Zaccardelli. I notice your opening statement is probably in excess of five minutes, but that is fine. We allowed previous witnesses to go beyond that, so just do your entire opening statement.

3:35 p.m.

Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual

Giuliano Zaccardelli

Good afternoon. Bon après-midi.

Before we proceed to questions and with your permission, I would like to make this brief statement.

As you will note, I have provided the committee with a written statement that includes more detail; however, in the interest of time I would like to provide a very brief overview of the facts surrounding my actions with regard to the RCMP pension fund. I hope that in doing so I can set the stage for further questions and provide a necessary balance to the presentations and interpretations of facts that were brought forward to this committee three weeks ago.

I know the committee is both committed and mandated to review any and all information that is brought forward, with a judicious requirement for due process and proper balance. I am sure there are many who share my concern that uncorroborated and highly individualized input puts these principles at risk, as does premature comment before all of the information relevant to a careful and thorough review is put before this committee.

In the spring of 2003, Staff Sergeant Ron Lewis brought to my attention concerns he had regarding the administration of the RCMP pension fund. I responded by writing a memo to the head of internal audit directing that these issues be examined and that the matter be given top priority. My determination was that the best course of action was to initiate an internal audit.

In October 2003 I was given a copy of the completed internal audit. I summarized the identified problems, as they were of great concern to me, as follows: evidence of nepotism in hiring in management, improper billing of contracts and contract splitting, failure to comply with Treasury Board and RCMP policies regarding contracts and hiring, improper charging of administrative fees to the pension fund.

However, the audit report found no indication of criminal activity. The report clearly identified the responsible individuals as the chief human resource officer and the director general of the National Compensation Policy Centre. That day, Mr. Chairman, immediately after reading the report, I took the following steps.

I met with and requested and received the resignation of the chief human resource officer. I then appointed Barbara George as the new chief human resource officer. I directed Ms. George to remove the director general of the National Compensation Policy Centre from his position. I further instructed Ms. George to carefully review and act upon all issues outlined in the audit report. I briefed the deputy commissioner for corporate management and directed him to immediately review to ensure that all proper financial control systems were in place and to reverse any inappropriate charges against the pension fund.

I want to note very clearly here that protecting the fund was and remained my topmost priority, and no repercussions to the pensions of RCMP employees and veterans exist as a result of this situation. It was my belief that the implementation of this plan of action would result in the proper amelioration of the identified problems.

It came to my attention over the next few months that concerns were still being expressed about the process of response that had been put into place by Staff Sergeant Lewis, Chief Superintendent Macaulay, and others. After I consulted with Deputy Commissioner Garry Loeppky at some length, we decided to ask the Ottawa Police Service to carry out an independent criminal investigation.

This investigation began in March of 2004. Fifteen months later, in the summer of 2005, the Ottawa Police Service completed their investigation. The Ottawa Police Service consulted with crown counsel with the Ministry of the Attorney General for the Province of Ontario about the results of its extensive investigation. Crown counsel reviewed the facts disclosed by the investigation and advised the Ottawa Police that there was no reasonable prospect of conviction on criminal charges. The Ottawa Police Service report reiterated the problems as outlined in the internal audit, and furthermore, it went on to name a number of employees who may have been in violation of the RCMP code of conduct.

I immediately directed the chief human resource officer, Ms. George, to commence a review under the RCMP Act with respect to this element of the Ottawa Police Service report. During the time this review was under way, the Federal Court of Appeal handed down a decision on another case that now, for the first time, clarified the issue of when the clock should be considered to start ticking on the one-year limitation of action. As a result of the Federal Court decision, the deputy commissioner in charge of the process informed me that he was not able to proceed further on disciplinary action. Nevertheless, as I have already stated, the two people identified as having overall responsibility had been removed from their positions.

Before we proceed to questions, I would like to make two further comments.

The first relates to the very serious and, to me, offensive allegations that have been made to this committee and, subsequently, by some committee members outside of these chambers. That is that I personally engaged in a process of cover-up related to the pension fund. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the outset, all steps taken by me and by management were openly reported upon and documented.

Let me briefly itemize. I met on a regular basis with RCMP divisional representatives and their executive committee to report our actions vis-à-vis the pension fund. As I've already noted, an internal audit team was established, and their report was tabled and reviewed by the senior management team. In turn, this report was immediately forwarded to the Treasury Board and to the Auditor General of Canada. As I have also just described, the Ottawa Police established an independent investigative team, and their work was reviewed by crown counsel of the Ministry of the Attorney General for the Province of Ontario.

In 2006, the Auditor General reviewed the administration of the RCMP pension plan. Her report was thorough and complete. As she noted, she said, “The RCMP responded adequately to its internal audit and the OPS investigation.” She went on to itemize a number of unresolved matters and to say, “The RCMP has responded. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police has agreed with each of our recommendations and is in the process of taking corrective action.”

A number of media articles have been published about this situation, clearly putting it into the public domain. There were a number of communications regarding the progress of this situation to all employees via my commissioner's broadcast, which is an internal e-mail communication to all 25,000 employees of the RCMP. I met on at least two occasions with the RCMP Veterans' Association and reviewed the pension fund issues.

Now, I want to make one thing clear: I have never been under the misapprehension that all parties were necessarily happy with the steps that were taken and the management approach to this issue that I was pursuing as commissioner. As you can imagine, there were very few of the thousands of decisions that I undertook during my tenure as commissioner that were unanimously supported. That is one of the burdens and challenges of leadership, of course. However, there is a significant difference between disagreeing with the steps taken by management and making allegations that management is covering up or acting corruptly, as Lewis, Macaulay, and others who disagreed have done.

Mr. Chairman, I do not plan today, or in the future, to grant any quarter to remarks made at this committee or elsewhere inferring corruption at the RCMP or associated with me. Such allegations are so completely baseless that I can only surmise that frustration and anger have badly clouded the thinking of the individuals who have made such unfounded and unsubstantiated statements. In my view, the responsibility of this committee and the purpose of my appearance here today is to assist the committee in discharging its mandate to carry out a careful, thorough, and judicious review of the problems and solutions found vis-à-vis the RCMP pension fund.

I would like to close these remarks with one final comment of a more personal nature. As you will have gathered from a number of my comments, I am deeply concerned about the inferences and accusations that have been levied against me in this committee and in the public sphere as a result. I have not had, before today, the opportunity to provide information or respond to questions, and yet, Mr. Chairman, it appears that many conclusions have been arrived at regardless. I am confident that this cannot have been the intention of the committee, and I look forward to clearing up the misconceptions that have been allowed to flourish.

Nonetheless, whether intended or not, my integrity has been called into question. This is perhaps, as some people view it, the unavoidable wages of leadership. But I cannot let this opportunity pass without once again stating without equivocation that nothing could be more important to me than honouring and protecting the men and women with whom I have worked. Any review of my work and record in management would reveal this as my top priority, even to the last complicated set of decisions I was challenged to defend, and for which I decided to resign.

My commitment has always been to my colleagues. Throughout the 36 years of my career, I have always held to an overriding commitment that remains as true today as it did on the day I first donned my uniform: to live by my values, exercise my fairest judgment, and carry out my duty, to the best of my ability as a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, for Canadians and Canada.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Zaccardelli.

I now want to turn to an opening statement by Mr. Ewanovich, but before I do that I have a housekeeping matter.

At the last meeting a large number of documents were tabled in English only. They have been translated and circulated to the members. I'm going to deem them tabled at this time.

Mr. Ewanovich.