Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 30th, 2017

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll now move back to Mr. Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In your introduction earlier, you said something that was right on the mark. In fact, I am convinced that the 337 other members of the House of Commons share your opinion.

We have received a lot of calls from Canadians who were outraged by this. These people are not millionaires or people who hire an accountant to fill out their tax return. They are ordinary citizens with a modest income. In most cases, they are seniors. Eight times out of ten, or 84% of the time, these people were not able to talk to an agent or, even worse, got incorrect information.

Did these people pay too much tax or not enough? That is the question, and it is obviously the first one that comes to mind for them.

Did they pay too much tax as a result of the incorrect information they were given?

Mr. Hamilton, what recourse do these people have?

[Bob Hamilton]

I am not sure I understand your question.

It is important for those people to get the right information.

Your question about taxes and whether they paid too much or not enough is interesting.

In my opinion, providing information that is consistent with the law is important. That is why we will do many things to improve training and ensure that the right person gives those people the right answer, especially in the case of vulnerable people, you are right.

Having a good website with accurate information is important. On the other hand, many people would rather talk to an agent. That is an important issue for us and we will improve.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

What you say is very interesting, Mr. Hamilton, but you did not answer my question. Since I am having trouble getting my point across, let me ask the question again.

My riding office received calls from people who said they filled out their tax returns according to the information they had received from the revenue department. Then these people learned that the information they were given was not entirely accurate, to say the least.

These people filled out their tax return based on inaccurate information. Perhaps they paid too much tax as a result.

What recourse do people have who paid too much tax as a result of the inaccurate information provided by your agency?

[Bob Hamilton]

I'm sorry, I had not understood your question properly.

We have a system called “taxpayer relief provisions” whereby someone can contact the agency to report that they paid too much tax as a result of an error by the agency. We then examine their complaint. We can cancel interest if that is acceptable and appropriate. Those people can contact the agency to speak to an agent about that.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Hamilton, with all due respect to you and your employees, I have to tell you that people are suspicious. If we receive inaccurate information when we are filling out our income tax return, who says the analysis will be correct? How can you guarantee Canadian citizens who were shortchanged once that they will not be shortchanged a second time when their file is reviewed?

[Bob Hamilton]

The taxpayer relief provisions are important, but I think providing accurate information to people is even more important.

So it is by ensuring that the information is accurate and appropriate that we can improve. I think the agency has shown integrity over the years and that people have to trust it. To my mind, we have to ensure that we are providing the best information possible to Canadians. Since this is a very important responsibility for the agency, we will make improvements in this regard.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

The issue for us is not integrity, but effectiveness.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Hamilton.

You had a little more time, Mr. Deltell. Maybe I'll just ask one quick question.

How is morale at CRA? How is morale amongst employees? With an audit like this coming down, is morale high?

[Bob Hamilton]

Mr. Chair, it's an interesting question. I'm pleased to say that the morale in this area is high.

I'll just refer to the example last year on the appeals audit, which, again, was difficult for us because it pointed to a number of shortcomings in our appeals process in terms of timeliness. We weren't giving information in a way that tax payers expected. When I talked to the appeals people afterwards, they were actually somewhat energized. To go back, people there understand some of the problems in the system. When we have a motivated action plan to correct it, they get energized by it.

I did ask the question. I sent out the message, as indicated, to tell people about the report, the importance for us, and the importance of improving. I asked the representatives from the call centres how people are feeling. They said that they actually feel good. They're feeling that this is an opportunity for us to really improve, to make sure that we're giving them the right tools. We have the technology on the horizon, but there will be an importance, a priority, attached to this by virtue of what I'm doing and by virtue of what Frank and Gillian are doing. People are seizing that opportunity.

We have to deliver on that. I know that will be an issue for the committee and the Auditor General. Are we going to commit to improving the way that we've laid out in our action plan? I believe that we will. Our employees will be expecting that and putting our feet to the fire.

For the moment I can say, yes, they're feeling motivated to make improvements to the system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Ms. Mendès, go ahead.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for being here.

I'm going to follow up on my colleagues' points, Mr. Christopherson's and Mr. Deltell's, about the fact that taxpayers are citizens. Taxpayers expect a government that provides services to them that are accurate and timely.

When someone calls one of the call centres to ask for tax information and is given an erroneous answer, that will most automatically cause someone, in good faith, to submit an erroneous return. He or she is going to make a return that is mistaken because of the information he or she received. Mr. Deltell asked what recourse they have. Almost automatically the agency actually does the calculations and eventually will give us a proper amount. However, when we owe money to the agency, we're charged interest. When the agency owes money to us, not one red cent is paid in interest. For some people this is a big issue. It's a lot of money. They did it in good faith. They actually produced their returns in good faith.

Why are we continuing to provide bad information to people? If somebody doesn't know the answer, they should tell the citizen that they don't know the answer. Refer them to somebody who can answer them. But giving erroneous information is extremely harmful. I really can't understand how for years—this is not recent, this is not one time, this has been going on for awhile—we can continue to sustain a service that is providing erroneous information to citizens.

[Bob Hamilton]

I'll ask my colleague to talk a little more about what we do in the cases where taxpayers get erroneous information. I talked about the taxpayer relief program, but he'll elaborate on that.

However, you are absolutely right. One of the things I want to emphasize for our agents is that we understand that the tax system is complicated, and they might not know the answer to every question, depending on what tier of agent they are. If they are first tier and get a very detailed question about RRSPs, or what have you, the right thing to do is to say, “I don't know, and I'll refer you to someone who does.” It is not right to try to guess—

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

May I interrupt you for two seconds, Mr. Hamilton? I saw the numbers on the child benefit program, and 21% of answers given in the first year of implementation of the program were erroneous. That's very high in a program that should be reasonably easy to explain to citizens. How do you explain that?

[Bob Hamilton]

I'd have to look in more detail at those numbers, and I'm happy to do that and come back to you, but I think the important point, which I'm agreeing with you on, is that our agents need to know that if they don't know the answer, to find someone who does, and get the right information out there. I totally agree with you.

Maybe I'll just ask Frank to comment a bit more on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Vermaeten.

[Frank Vermaeten]

Thanks for that. Maybe I can just add a couple of things. I think it's important that you talked about the child benefit, for example. As well as having opportunities for relief if there's a problem, it's also important to know that the child benefit, for example, is retroactive for 10 years, so you can imagine a situation where—

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

Is the child benefit retroactive for 10 years?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You're talking about two different plans. She's talking about the new program, and you're talking about the child tax benefit.

[Frank Vermaeten]

What I mean by that is, imagine a situation where an individual doesn't apply for the Canada child benefit and later finds out they should have applied. I'm just giving you an example. They then apply, but later. The individual would be paid retroactively for any amounts that were owing. I say “retroactive for 10 years” because five years from now if the individual applies and should have applied way back, they are going to get paid retroactively the full amount. That's what I mean by retroactive for up to 10 years.

It's just to say that there are measures in place where we—

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—Saint-Lambert, QC]

I'm sure you have heard the stories, particularly of women, who have been trying to prove that they are the mothers of one or two children. We're even asking them to get their ex-husbands to sign off on it. Excuse me, but that just doesn't work.

They are mothers. They have children. Why are you asking these very onerous questions of citizens?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Absolutely, there are some very difficult cases here, and people in very difficult situations, and those whose situations change. There are procedures, and at first instance you're going to try to verify the information. I do believe our call centres and our people are very responsive; they do try to find alternative answers. When they do, the child benefit is retroactive to the day when they should have gotten it.

I can say the same thing in terms of adjustments to taxes. There are a lot of people—1.9 million a year—who resubmit their taxes because they forgot something. It could be because they had an incorrect answer from a call agent, but more likely it's because they forgot something themselves. Again, we go back and make those adjustments, and as a result, we end up with tax returns that are very accurate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Nuttall and then Mr. Christopherson, and then that's it for today.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There were some questions by Mr. Christopherson, and I just want to follow up because something needs to be talked about. Paragraph 2.68 of the Auditor General's report states that:

According to the Agency, about 90 percent of callers are connected to either the automated self-service system or a call centre agent. By blocking and redirecting calls, the Agency was able to report that it had met its targets for all telephone lines. However, when blocked calls are factored in, the Agency’s overall success rate was 36 percent.

Those are the Auditor General's words. Was there a paragraph within the reporting from CRA that said callers are connected 90% of the time?

[Bob Hamilton]

I'm not sure I'm understanding your question.