Evidence of meeting #141 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was daly.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lysane Bolduc  Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thomas von Schoenberg  Senior Director, Real Property Contracting Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Dillan Theckedath  Committee Researcher

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Good morning, everyone.

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 141 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we begin, I'd like to ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including and especially the interpreters. You'll notice a QR code on the card that links to a short awareness video.

This is a kind reminder to all those in person and online that, for the safety of our interpreters, it is very important that your microphone is muted when you're not speaking.

I thank all members in advance for their co-operation.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is resuming consideration of Report 1 of the 2024 Reports of the Auditor General of Canada, “ArriveCAN”, which was referred to the committee on Monday, February 12, 2024.

I'd now like to welcome our two witnesses, who have been very patient. I thank you for that.

From the Department of Public Works and Government Services, we have Lysane Bolduc, director general, professional services, transformative solutions sector, and Thomas von Schoenberg, senior director, real property contracting directorate.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks. I don't know if you have a preference as to who will begin, but I'll turn it over to Madame Bolduc.

You have the floor for five minutes, please. It's over to you.

Lysane Bolduc Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that we are meeting today on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe Nation.

Today, I am joined by Tom von Schoenberg, senior director of the real property contracting directorate within the procurement branch of Public Services and Procurement Canada.

I would like to thank the Standing Committee on Public Accounts for inviting Mr. von Schoenberg and me to respond to the testimony given by Diane Daly at the committee meeting of August 7, 2024.

Mr. Chair, serious allegations were made by Ms. Daly during her appearance before this committee. Specifically, we were accused of asking her to provide false statements to CBSA personnel in response to their request for her to appear as a witness in their investigation regarding ArriveCAN.

I want to be very clear about Ms. Daly's statements in this regard. They are false. Neither of us asked Diane Daly to engage in dishonest activities. On the contrary, we offered our support during what we understood to be a personally difficult time for her.

On December 14, 2023, I explained to Ms. Daly that her participation as a witness to the CBSA investigation was necessary as part of her job duties. I offered to accompany her, facilitated her request to have a union representative or her sister join her at the meeting, and regularly checked on her well-being before and after her meeting with CBSA investigators.

Further, between December 2023 and March 2024, I responded to several questions raised by Ms. Daly regarding her rights and obligations, either as a witness or as a respondent of internal investigations. This included providing her guidance on legal assistance and representation by her union.

I also took extra precautions to ensure that both her and my confidentiality obligations were respected concerning this file.

In March 2024, when the employee and I were informed that she was a respondent in a PSPC internal investigation, I reiterated my support and answered all of her questions, reassuring her that, while she was being removed from her procurement duties, she was on leave with pay.

Mr. Chair, my involvement with the ArriveCAN file is limited to my interactions with Ms. Daly as her director general during the period when the CBSA and PSPC initiated internal investigations, specifically between December 2023 and March 2024. It should be noted that I was not an employee of PSPC's procurement branch during the ArriveCAN procurement process and have no involvement with the related companies or associated contracts.

Mr. von Schoenberg's involvement with the ArriveCAN file was very brief and consisted of participating in the 30-minute meeting mentioned by Ms. Daly during her appearance before this committee. He attended the meeting in his capacity as her senior director at the time, with the sole responsibility of informing Ms. Daly of the necessity for her to co-operate with the CBSA's investigation. That is the full extent of Mr. von Schoenberg's involvement on this matter.

The false allegations made at this committee on August 7 have called our professional integrity into question and have the potential to undermine our reputations. In my case, this reputation was built over 30 years of flawless professional work in both the private and public sectors, in Canada and abroad.

Both Tom and I are committed to fair, open and transparent public procurements that provide best value to Canadians. I have a particular interest in solicitations for professional services, given my role as director general of a new sector within PSPC created in April 2024 to transform procurement in this commodity area.

Mr. Chair, we are grateful for the opportunity today to correct the record and clear our names of the defamatory information presented to this committee on August 7.

We would be pleased to answer your questions on these topics.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you.

Monsieur von Schoenberg, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

Thomas von Schoenberg Senior Director, Real Property Contracting Directorate, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you.

I would just reiterate Ms. Bolduc's commentary. I don't have any additional comments to provide.

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Chair, via the video feed, I don't mind your face, but I just see you the entire time. I'm not seeing the witnesses. I don't know if that can be corrected.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Apparently someone is working on that. I'm also informed that there is no additional vote this evening so that will help us on the time schedule.

Mr. Erskine-Smith, I'll proceed with questioning, unless you insist on....

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

No, that's fine.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I just wanted to double-check with you. Very good. We'll begin our first round.

Thank you to the witnesses.

My intention is to get through four rounds today. We're going to begin with Mr. Brock.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Bolduc, I'm going to be asking you some pretty simple but very important questions. I appreciate straightforward answers. We don't want talking points. We don't want to continue to be misled by officials at PSPC and CBSA.

You got caught up in this mess. We, as a committee, want to know how this arrive scam grew from an initial $80,000 app to at least $60 million with no accountability from this government. I realize you're not part of the ArriveCAN app, but the more we dig into these issues and interview witnesses, the more we find layers of misdeeds and collusion with top-level executives pointing the finger down the line.

Frankly, we've been misled by senior officials on a number of occasions in a number of committees. This goes for deputy ministers and, likely, the ministers they are protecting.

You have had weeks to prepare for this committee meeting and we're looking for answers. Canadians deserve nothing but the truth. You've had weeks to prepare. Have you received any coaching at all or any material to review in advance of your testimony today, yes or no?

5:25 p.m.

Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lysane Bolduc

Mr. Chair, thank you for the question.

I have sought and I have received counselling in order to prepare for this committee. This is the first time that I have appeared at a parliamentary committee and I wanted to know about the etiquette.

If the question is as per the—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Who counselled you?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lysane Bolduc

People who are in—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Ma'am, who counselled you?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lysane Bolduc

Essentially, the unit that prepares these witnesses to come to the committee.

In terms of material to come to this committee, this is my material—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

I want you to name the officials who prepped you for this testimony.

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lysane Bolduc

That's the unit, essentially, that—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

What's the unit called?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lysane Bolduc

It's the unit that liaises with this committee, essentially.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Is it at PSPC?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lysane Bolduc

Yes, that's correct.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay. Did you talk with Ms. Reza, the deputy minister?

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lysane Bolduc

No, I did not.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

In advance of this meeting and in preparing for this meeting, you did not.

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Professional Services Transformative Solutions Sector (PSTSS), Department of Public Works and Government Services

Lysane Bolduc

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I did not—

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Yes or no, did you talk with Erin O'Gorman at CBSA?