Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

What exactly did you know about the COVID‑19 funding SDTC allocated and paid out?

[Navdeep Bains]

As you have indicated, there were a number of payments made to individuals and organizations during that time period. In this particular instance, monies were allocated to Sustainable Development Technology Canada. It was designed to support Canadian businesses and Canadian entrepreneurs in dealing with this unprecedented crisis, and this was done across a number of industries and across a number of regions in Canada.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

All right.

I'm going to quote from a letter you sent. Unfortunately, it's in English, so I will read it in English.

“Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada and SDTC share a strong working relationship, and I look forward to this continued collaboration.”

Despite that, then, you really weren't aware of how that money was allocated, even though the assistant deputy minister attended the meetings. You had no idea how that process worked.

[Navdeep Bains]

The assistant deputy minister reports to the deputy minister. Neither the ADM nor the DM brought these issues to my attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Up next is Mr. Cannings again. You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to continue with that line of questioning, because I was going to talk about Andrew Noseworthy, your ADM who sat in on board meetings.

An ADM has quite a high position, so I imagine he must have had some role and some guidance. You claim to have no knowledge of this, but the deputy minister must have sent him to these meetings with some role in mind.

As I've said, I've been on three cabinet-appointed boards before and we never had an ADM sit in on our meetings. Maybe it's because we didn't have the budget that SDTC was dealing with, but I'm sure there must have been some role for Mr. Noseworthy there, even though this is supposedly an arm's-length operation.

Was he reporting to the deputy minister on what was going on, and was he under direction from the deputy minister to provide direction to the board? I'm quite curious about this.

[Navdeep Bains]

The member's assessment is accurate, which is that the assistant deputy minister reports to the deputy minister. My interactions with the assistant deputy minister were fairly limited and no such issues were raised—that was asked before—pertaining to the conflicts of interest.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Did the deputy minister bring to your attention that these decisions were being made? Maybe board members were stepping out of the room when a vote was taken regarding something they might have a financial interest in, but it sounds like they weren't recusing themselves from the actual discussion around that; they were just recusing themselves from the vote.

If what the Auditor General has said is true—and I believe you said you more or less accept that—I would assume that the deputy minister and the assistant deputy minister would have been concerned about how things were transpiring in the board meetings.

[Navdeep Bains]

No such issues were brought to my attention, as I indicated. My understanding was that all of the board members were conducting themselves in a manner that was consistent with the obligations they had to respect when dealing with conflicts of interest.

These issues were never brought to my attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll turn now to Mr. Brock. You have the floor for five minutes.

Before that, Mr. Bains, I know you're answering a lot of questions, but in between, could you put your microphone on mute? I know it can be difficult when you're going back and forth. In particular, if you touch or adjust your headset, put it on mute, because it makes a feedback signal, which can interfere with and potentially harm the interpreters. Please do your best on that.

In particular, if you find you have to adjust your headset, please mute. Please also mute when you're not answering questions. That would be appreciated.

[Navdeep Bains]

I understand, Mr. Chair. Yes, I did that a couple of times because I was having difficulty hearing the question.

I appreciate the feedback. I will mute it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

If you want to pause for 10 seconds, that's no problem, either.

Do you know how to mute your mic? I should ask that before we proceed.

[Navdeep Bains]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You would not be the first who does this. It's one of the things I wanted to double-check.

Thank you.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Former Liberal minister Bains, I'm going to follow up on a question put to you by my colleague Mr. Cooper. He didn't get the question out, so we didn't receive a response.

To refresh your memory, Minister, the question was this: Do you take any former ministerial responsibility for the gross breach of trust and the misuse of almost $400 million of taxpayer money?

[Navdeep Bains]

As I indicated, it's important that ministers act in the best interest of Canadians and conduct themselves accordingly.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, do you take responsibility? This was under your watch. Canadians want to know.

[Navdeep Bains]

Again, I'm answering the question, but I keep getting interrupted.

As I indicated, it was important that I advanced what was in Canadians' best interest and it was important that policies were set in a manner...as well as public office—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Then the answer is no. You take no responsibility, which is a hallmark of the Justin Trudeau government, particularly among his ministers, current and former.

On the issue of misuse of taxpayer monies, you didn't want to answer the question put to you by Mr. Perkins. Your role at Rogers is that of chief corporate affairs officer. Under Justin Trudeau's government, since 2015 Rogers Communications Canada—one of the largest telco companies in the world—has received a whopping $173,954,991 in taxpayer grants and contributions. I wish to put that on the record.

Mr. Bains, I understand you were in Ottawa this past weekend—

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, there's a point of order.

Go ahead, Ms. Yip.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What's the relevance of Mr. Brock's statement?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I think he was just reading some numbers into the record.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

It's relevant to Canadians.

I'll move on.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Brock, you have about three minutes.