Evidence of meeting #148 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was verschuren.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Navdeep Bains  As an Individual

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

I apologize. I believe the correct pronunciation of the name is former minister Paradis.

4:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

It's Christian Paradis. That is my understanding as well. That's correct.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

That is about your time, Ms. Yip. Thank you very much.

The next questioner is Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné for six minutes.

Just a moment.

Mr. Bains, I'm speaking French now. Do you hear me in English? Are you getting the interpretation?

I just want to make sure that you're getting the translation.

Is it working? Very good.

Go ahead, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné.

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Bains, for making yourself available to meet with the committee again.

I hope I'll get answers to my questions this time.

First of all, you said you don't remember meeting Ms. Batool when you were minister and she was vice-president of Sustainable Development Technology Canada, or SDTC.

Is that correct?

4:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

Thank you for your question.

As I stated in my opening remarks, I didn't recall meeting Ms. Batool. As I stated the last time I was here, I met her at some public events maybe once or twice. That was really a function of the conversation I had with her when she was applying for the role at CIBC, as I mentioned in my opening statement.

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Did you have any involvement in her hiring at the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, CIBC?

4:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

As I stated in my opening remarks, I was one of a number of people who interviewed her for that role at CIBC.

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

When Ms. Lawrence appeared before the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology in January 2024, she said that two people were in direct contact with your office while you were minister, Ms. Batool being one of them.

Were you aware of that?

4:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

No, I was not aware of that.

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

You weren't aware, then, of the meetings with your office or what was discussed regarding SDTC.

I gather that your office staff were off working in their own corner and didn't include you or inform you of what they were doing. Was that the case?

4:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

No.

Just to clarify, you're asking if I knew if Ms. Batool was engaged with my staff. I don't recall having any meeting with her and I don't recall my staff telling me who they were engaging with at SDTC.

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

It never came to your attention that Ms. Batool communicated regularly with your office about what was happening at SDTC.

Is that correct?

4:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

No. As I indicated, I had no meeting or contact with her, to my recollection.

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I see.

I'm going to summarize a few things that happened while you were the Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, and obviously they pertain to SDTC. Again, this was during your time as minister.

In 2019, SDTC's ecosystem stream was developed. It was a confidential stream. It wasn't possible to apply online. The stream was never available online, in fact.

Your department informed SDTC that this didn't comply with SDTC's framework agreement. It was your department that conveyed that important message to SDTC.

At the time, were you aware of the message your department conveyed with respect to SDTC?

5 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

No, I don't recall that.

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I'll keep going.

Your department was aware of the conflicts of interest the board members had declared in relation to the 2020‑21 COVID‑19 relief payments, because your department had access to the meeting minutes. The minutes clearly indicated that many of the board members were not recusing themselves even though they had declared being in a conflict of interest situation.

Since your department received the meeting minutes, did that information come to your attention?

5 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

Thank you for your question.

To answer that question specifically, I did not receive any such information.

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Very good.

Did you know that SDTC, an organization you were responsible for, didn't have a conflict of interest register and was putting its blind trust in members to declare their conflicts of interest on a case-by-case basis? It wasn't until 2022 that the foundation created a register of conflicts of interest, so after you left.

Did you know that?

5 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

To your point, through the chair, they may have set up a registry. As I stated in my opening remarks, the onus is on the board members to make sure that they follow the Conflict of Interest Act. That's my understanding

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

The committee found that extremely concerning. According to the Auditor General, there were 41 cases of conflict of interest between 2017 and 2020, in other words, while you were minister.

Did all that surprise you when you read the Auditor General's report?

5 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

It's very important to note that I respect the work of the AG, and these findings are very important. I think we all are here to talk about these important matters.

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I see.

I asked whether the Auditor General's report surprised you because you said you weren't aware of the discussions your own office had with SDTC leadership.

You did not know there wasn't even a conflict of interest register. You did not know that directors on the board who had declared having conflicts of interest were not recusing themselves from those meetings. You also did not know that a quasi-secret stream had been developed to fund companies that were ultimately in a conflict of interest situation involving board members.

What did you know about? Were you overseeing anything?

5 p.m.

As an Individual

Navdeep Bains

As I indicated, this was an arm's-length organization, and my responsibility, as the minister, was to appoint seven of the 15 members. As I've indicated on several occasions, I think it's very important to note that members on a board are to conduct themselves in a manner that respects the obligations they have to follow under the Conflict of Interest Act.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you.

Up next is Mr. Cannings.

Mr. Cannings, I haven't had a chance to formally welcome you to the committee. I was going to take note of that the other day, but you were swapped out.

Welcome to the public accounts committee. We look forward to having you here.

You now have six minutes.

Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Bains, for being with us today, at least virtually.

As the chair mentioned, I'm new to this committee, so forgive me if I take a higher elevation look at this. I don't know a lot of the details in this file.

At the heart of this is an Auditor General's report that had findings of mismanagement, lack of proper board oversight and conflicts of interest within SDTC.

First of all, do you accept the findings of the Auditor General's report? That question was perhaps asked in a different way just now.