Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Ms. Hogan, you noted specific risks that the government would not meet their guiding principles. In summary, do you feel as though the government has met their guiding principles with this program or not?

[Karen Hogan]

I think our audit showed that federal funding led to improvements. I think the most noticeable would be in affordability. There's definitely been a decline in the costs for child care per day and there's definitely been a creation of spaces, but what's missing is whether or not the government, by the end of 2026, will be able to show whether all of those goals have been missing, because there are gaps in information.

There's a failure in making sure they've set themselves up to get that information, but it's clear that the funding has helped make child care more affordable across the country.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

In your view, do you believe ESDC has properly tracked and kept data to assess whether or not the government will meet its guiding principles?

[Karen Hogan]

I believe most of our testimony today has been around exactly that: a gap of missing information.

There's a key recommendation about gathering better information. I think it's easier to track the number of spaces; it's hard to know whether they're being used. It's hard to know whether they're inclusive and whether the right families are using those spaces.

I think there's a lot of opportunity for improvement on data gathering and reporting.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Is there any other program that has been created and implemented by this government that you could use as a comparison, or alternatively a principle of IFRS that would be applicable here in terms of the outcome of the fund delivery?

[Karen Hogan]

That's a very difficult question for me to look at.

There are so many programs across the government, and I think some of the findings here about the need to establish how to measure things when you're in a space regulated by a province are findings we're seeing in other programs. We saw that when gathering health information during the pandemic. You see it in housing.

I think there needs to be a way for the federal government to work out better reporting and exchange mechanisms with the provinces and territories, because often there is a commingling of federal money, provincial money and municipal money. How do we talk to Canadians about a program on a national level when we don't have good information-sharing agreements for all of these programs? I think there's an opportunity for all levels of government to show Canadians how money is being spent in a better way.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

I agree.

In addition to the example I gave earlier about the pipeline MOU, which is supposed to be announced today, I'm thinking of another example within my city specifically. The government is going to withhold funding for housing, should they decide to repeal blanket rezoning, so it comes with strings attached. It's not “this is for the good of your community and what you decide”; it has to adhere to things.

In three instances, you note that Employment and Social Development Canada either “did not effectively assess” or “missed opportunities to monitor” expected outcomes of the program. Why do you think that is?

[Karen Hogan]

It speaks to the recommendation around, in the design, really thinking about how to gather comparable and consistent information across the country, recognizing that everybody was starting in a slightly different place. How do you elevate it to talk consistently about it? I think it's about not having the data, and at times, it's about collecting some of the data but not consolidating it to talk about the global picture they have. I think there are two elements that contribute to not being able to demonstrate....

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Do you believe that ESDC currently has the tools to monitor these arrangements?

[Karen Hogan]

Well, all of the agreements clearly call for the exchange of information. As mentioned earlier, an annual report is required, and funding can be delayed until that report is received. We definitely saw that happening. I think the focus needs to be on the content of what's in there so you can get some more consistent and comparable information from all the provinces in order to speak nationally about the program.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Why do you think the government signed individual agreements with provinces and territories, knowing the areas it wanted to track, without receiving guarantees that it would receive that information from the provinces and territories? That's tied into my first round.

[Karen Hogan]

I think all of the agreements talked about the need to exchange information, but that wasn't to the level of exactly what. I think some of the agreements recognized.... We had a conversation just earlier in another question, saying to provide information if able, recognizing that some provinces don't have a robust or mature system right now. How do you support them in getting that so you can get national information?

There are a lot of parameters in place, but this is possibly an area that we see in many programs: forgetting to think about exactly what we need in order to show outcomes. It's not just about metrics. It's about, really, the endgame. I think inclusivity and flexibility are great things. It's easy to measure the number of spaces, but it's hard to measure something that's a little less concrete. You have to think that through at the start.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're going back to Mr. Osborne for five minutes, please.

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a follow-up for the department.

On the missed opportunity, as identified in the AG report, to monitor reporting effectively and to monitor the progress nationally, can you walk us through what, if any, steps you've put in place, either prior to the report being completed or since the report, to improve that?

[Paul Thompson]

Absolutely.

I would first point to the fact that, as noted, there was not an absence of data collection. We have quite a reliable set of data on space creation and very good indicators on affordability. Those were some of the initial objectives. I think what the AG has pointed out is that there's a need for much more granularity in meeting some of the more nuanced objectives of the program. We're fully committed to doing that.

I mentioned that the legislation establishes proper reporting as a key feature. It's the top, if not one of the top, priorities of the deputy minister and minister working groups. My minister, Minister Hajdu, meets regularly with her counterparts. I meet with the deputies, and there's a data working group. There's a lot of work on lifting all the boats to have a much better collective reporting system.

I mentioned that, just in the last week, we've launched a new portal, which is a consolidated space to provide Canadians with information on the review. The Auditor General noted that there were two issues. One was collecting information, and the second was assembling it and making it available. On that second issue, we are committed to assembling faster and posting in a much clearer fashion, through this portal we have, the information that's available. There are a few more limitations on what we can collect because that's a provincial capacity issue, but as I noted, we're working on that aspect as well.

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

The report also indicated that the department “did not update its approaches to measuring results to collect information on progress toward some planned actions”. Have you addressed this? If not, what do you plan to do to update the approaches to measuring results?

[Paul Thompson]

As I mentioned on that front in relation to the last question on indigenous investments, we wanted to maintain a balance between three existing programs on which communities depended. We wanted to keep going and providing supports through those programs. At the same time, we're trying to shift to a new delivery model co-developed with indigenous partners.

This has taken us a little more time than we had hoped for, but that arises from our commitment to doing it in a co-developed way. We have 60 distinctions-based partnership tables with indigenous organizations across the country to try to come up with a performance framework that meets the needs of those communities. It puts them at the centre of the delivery of the programs.

We are very close. We have some final steps to get indigenous leadership's approval, but at the officials level, we've made very good progress on a performance framework that would be used by the distinctions-based partnership tables across the country.

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

I want to reflect a little on a question that a colleague across the table asked regarding service folks and some of our national defence sites.

I know that in Newfoundland and Labrador, in one of the initiatives we did, for example, a new hospital was announced. After I moved from education, I went into health. We announced a new hospital as part of that. That building is going to include an early learning and child care centre, through the program, that's focused on catering to the needs of health care professionals. It won't be nine to five. It reflects the actual work life of health care professionals.

I know that FPT meetings happen, but is there a way we can share best results from one jurisdiction to another jurisdiction so things like this may translate into helping at a national defence site or a hospital, if it's a new build, for example? We've adopted the policy that any new hospitals built have to contain, within the bricks and mortar, a space for early learning and child care that caters to health care professionals.

[Paul Thompson]

That is a really important and rich question. There are a number of dimensions to it.

I didn't get a chance to complete my earlier answer in reference to national defence. As you may know, there's a very significant investment—$100 million—to expand child care services within the Department of National Defence. We are collaborating with DND on that. I've had conversations with my counterpart. In fact, I invited her to present to the provinces, to your point, so DND could benefit from the wisdom of running child care centres that exist in the provinces and vice versa. There is an exchange in rolling out different child care supports.

Some of the same needs you were referring to in the Canadian Forces in terms of demand for child care outside of normal hours.... We see that in a whole bunch of other areas too, such as with major projects. I've seen companies that are interested in major projects really lean into doing child care planning. They can't attract a workforce unless there are child care supports.

The idea of designing child care delivery to meet the needs of atypical schedules is critical. I think it's recognized as an area that would benefit from even more sharing of best practices.

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

It is available in the funding, at least, though maybe not with all provinces. I'm not privy to agreements with other provinces, but our province was able to access funding under that program, which will in turn help us attract health care professionals through recruiting, because we're offering the service they need.

[Paul Thompson]

Indeed. It's not only enabled by the agreements; it's encouraged. That's the kind of thing we really enjoy seeing in action plans. What does each province plan to do to meet some of the atypical needs that might exist in rural, remote areas, as we referred to earlier?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Osborne. That is our time.

We will have a truncated last round with three members. We'll hear from the official opposition, the Bloc and then the government to close things out.

I have just a quick comment on something that's come up and that you could look into. The day care or child care facility for National Defence here in Ottawa—my wife is in the forces—is not located at the DND HQ. One thing our personnel doesn't do is complain, so I'm going to complain on their behalf today.

The day care has to be located where the men and women who lace up their boots every morning to defend this country go to work. There's no point in putting it halfway across town when the men and women have to drive to Kanata to go to work every single day.

I'll leave that with you, Mr. Thompson, to raise with the CDS or whoever your counterpart is on the military side. Location is key.

I know that my colleague Ms. Goodridge would agree with that.

On that note, Ms. Goodridge, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you.

I think this is one of the big struggles we are facing. In the Ontario Auditor General's report, they highlight that 27% of the spaces that are created are not being filled.

Mr. Thompson, do you know how many spaces across the country aren't being filled that have been created?

[Paul Thompson]

I don't have perfect data on utilization rates. It would vary from province to province. There has been a discussion with Ontario on their utilization rates, since they were fairly well documented in the Ontario Auditor General report. They have commitments that will be part of the extension agreement, not only on space creation but also on the utilization commitment.