Evidence of meeting #7 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Paul  Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat
Jocelyn Formsma  Executive Director, National Association of Friendship Centres
Christopher Sheppard  Board President, National Association of Friendship Centres
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Mark D'Amore
Michèle Audette  As an Individual
Fo Niemi  Executive Director, Center for Research-Action on Race Relations

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I bring to order the seventh meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

We are continuing our study on systemic racism in policing.

I point out, colleagues, that we are about 40 minutes late starting, and one of our witnesses had to leave. She has agreed to come onto the second panel. Mr. Paul has graciously agreed to come up into the first panel.

Mr. John Paul from Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat is on our first panel. Along with him are Christopher Sheppard and Jocelyn Formsma from the National Association of Friendship Centres.

Colleagues, I'm going to be a little arbitrary here to speed things up. I'm going to chop a minute off all speaking times, both for the witnesses and the questions, and maybe we can make up a bit of the time that we're behind. This voting stuff is really cutting into the committee's time these days.

With that, I'll call Mr. Paul to be the first person giving testimony. Mr. Paul, to make it a bit easier, from time to time you can look up at the chair, and I'll try to signal you when you have two minutes and one minute left. I know that initially we said we would give you seven minutes, but with the time constraints we're under, could you confine your remarks to six minutes?

Thank you, Mr. Paul.

4:10 p.m.

John Paul Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat

I'll go as fast as I can to cover everything.

I want to say thank you for letting me present some views about this very important topic today.

I'm the executive director of our organization, which is a non-profit that represents 33 communities across Atlantic Canada and the Gaspé in Quebec. Our organization is an advocacy policy research organization that analyzes and develops culturally relevant alternatives to federal policies that impact Mi’kmaq, Maliseet, Passamaquoddy and Innu communities and peoples. I have worked for indigenous communities for over 35 years and have had various relationships and dealings with the police over my career.

Racism and the continued existence of racist behaviours, actions or incidents involving police continue to concern our indigenous leadership. The issue must be addressed directly by governments as well as all key stakeholders. It highlights the need for a formal long-term strategy to help ensure any and all racist behaviours or actions are addressed and appropriate actions are taken to allow transformation and implementation of the real changes needed to empower and support indigenous people.

Racism, in many cases, has been institutionalized into a range of very traditional institutions and is not obvious or apparent to those involved in the institutions. Whether the policing structure is local, provincial or national, the mere raising of the issue of racism creates a negative or a hostile response in some people. They believe it's a personal attack on them as individuals.

Remember always that racism is a learned behaviour that may not be obvious or apparent to individuals. It may be invisible to some because of personal bias or set attitudes or values that people have.

Many indigenous people across Canada and Atlantic Canada have a great respect for the police, which they have developed over many decades and which has developed on an individual basis. Indigenous people inside and outside policing structures deal with them and established long-term relationships built on trust and demonstrated commitments and actions. Once such trust is eroded, for whatever reason, so is the relationship. This takes a very long time to rebuild or re-establish, if at all.

Since the start of Canada, after Confederation in 1867 and before, police have played a significant role in the relationship with indigenous groups and people. Police have played a significant role in the implementation of colonial-based policies focused on assimilation and the implementation of some bad things. This terrible foundation planted the root causes of racism, apparent or real, in how policing has been carried out and is carried out today.

Today, I believe the focus on racism in the police will help with critical issues and concerns, develop some concrete strategies for change and demonstrate improvements and results. Perception of a problem such as racism, whether it exists or does not, is an important consideration. Change will not be easy and must be supported by all parties, including across government and the police at all levels, as well as all the impacted stakeholders.

Racism and racist behaviours bring out the worst in people. Those who practise racist behaviours should and must be accountable for their actions. Most recently these behaviours were clearly demonstrated by non-indigenous fishers in Nova Scotia, with the recent conflict involving the implementation of treaty rights and a moderate livelihood fishery. The delays in timing for RCMP to take the necessary actions and follow-up have raised many concerns among our leadership and our communities. The feeling of concern was also expressed by many in the general public. The actions of police were not adequate. The actions took some time.

It is important to learn critical lessons from these incidents. They must and should be avoided at all costs to help build credibility and trust of the police in the communities they serve.

My experiences with the police started a very long time ago, with the wrongful conviction of Donald Marshall Jr. in my home community of Membertou and the subsequent royal commission on the wrongful conviction of Donald Marshall Jr. The recommendations detailed some fundamental changes needed in the justice system and raised considerable concerns about the Sydney police. The legacy and impact of these events made me and many other people from my community and other communities also pay attention to what policing was doing and the services they provided to our communities.

Over the years the types and delivery models and the approaches of policing services to communities have changed and evolved. They have either been municipal police, the RCMP, tribal police forces or municipal police forces again, and each of them has different issues and concerns.

The reality in the past always was that the concerns that indigenous people were identified and addressed, and the necessary changes were made. In a lot of cases, that helped improve the relationship and address things to build a strong relationship over time.

Fundamentally, to help ensure the elimination of racism, the design and delivery of policing services must be done in full partnership with indigenous leadership and directly—

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Paul, could you get to the rest of your remarks in the question-and-answer session? Again, I apologize for rushing you through this.

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat

John Paul

No, no, that's fine.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

We have, from the National Association of Friendship Centres, President Sheppard and Jocelyn Formsma, executive director.

You have six minutes.

4:15 p.m.

Jocelyn Formsma Executive Director, National Association of Friendship Centres

Thank you very much.

The comments will be made by President Sheppard, and I'll be here for the Q and A.

4:15 p.m.

Christopher Sheppard Board President, National Association of Friendship Centres

Good afternoon, committee.

I'm Christopher Sheppard. I'm the president of the National Association of Friendship Centres. I want to recognize that I'm joining you today from Treaty No. 6 and the homeland of the Métis, where I have received an incredible welcome since moving. I'm joined by our executive director, Jocelyn Formsma.

We thank you for your invitation to appear here before you and the members of the committee today.

The NAFC represents over 100 local friendship centres and provincial and territorial associations in every province and territory in Canada, except for Prince Edward Island.

Friendship centres are urban indigenous community hubs that provide a wide range of programs and services for every demographic of indigenous people. Collectively, we are the largest and most comprehensive urban indigenous service delivery network in Canada.

In 2019, 93 friendship centres served approximately 1.4 million first nations, Inuit, Métis and non-indigenous people across over 1,200 programs, in 238 buildings, and employed over 2,700 staff. We are proud to be a network led largely by indigenous women.

With respect to why we're here today, justice programs in 2016-17 amounted to 72 friendship centres offering 93 programs, with 28 considered restorative justice.

Friendship centres often interact with local and regional police services and other law enforcement agencies. This committee has already heard testimony regarding specific examples of systemic racism in policing and about numerous reports compiling evidence and experience over long periods of time. We have also had many examples from our own experiences and what we have heard from the communities we serve.

In the interest of time, we want to focus on actions to take from here.

The NAFC conducted a literature review of reports and the recommendations they make regarding indigenous justice. From this review, we gathered themes from the recommendations that have been emphasized and repeated in multiple reports. We have reviewed federal government strategies, programs or other formal responses to these reports. From those reports, there were three common recommendations.

The first theme is training and educating non-indigenous people on indigenous history, heritage, culture, identity, rights, laws and current realities. However, in our review of publicly available federal responses, we found little in the way of mandatory or ongoing training on indigenous matters for any national or federal law enforcement entity.

The second theme is increased funding to indigenous communities as well as to public programs and organizations whose objective is to benefit indigenous people. We have already outlined some of the programs that friendship centres operate. The funds for these programs largely come from municipalities or provinces.

The third theme is increasing participation of elders within the justice system, providing education and training on the Canadian justice system to indigenous people and increasing and promoting proper use of Gladue reports and courts. Again, these activities are very sparsely implemented across the country.

Urban indigenous people are continually caught in jurisdictional matters between federal and provincial governments. Law enforcement is no different.

For the recommendations to be successfully interpreted and implemented, funding must be provided to indigenous people living in urban communities as well as in rural or remote communities on an equitable basis. The funding cannot just be a one-time payment or a short-term proposal response to what is a generational issue. Rather, it must be sustainable, so that the programs and organizations concerned can be maintained and serve the community in the long term.

It is important to note that these reports were commissioned and published by the federal Government of Canada, provincial governments, intergovernmental organizations and independent organizations. The reports span a time of roughly 50 years. This means 50 years of missed opportunity to make committed, core, long-lasting change.

This lapse in time has led us to two overarching recommendations: co-developing accountability mechanisms for implementing the recommendations in the reports named in my brief, and developing structures to have honest conversations about what can be done and what is being done.

The NAFC submits that an additional crucial step in ensuring accountability is to legislate the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples in such a way that the rights of indigenous individuals are upheld and that the transportability of rights and urban indigenous peoples are not left out of a distinctions-based approach, which is what we see today.

The NAFC has offered and continues to offer its perspectives, expertise and knowledge of urban indigenous communities and community members to inform the federal government and guide effective remedies, both now and as we continue this journey.

We look forward to being a part of the ongoing conversation and to the continued investment in our work. I anticipate some really good questions for the rest of the meeting.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, President Sheppard, for being within three seconds of your time. That's good.

One of the things this committee is known for is the excellent questions, which will be led off by Mr. Kurek, who will have five minutes. Mr. Iacono will have another five minutes, and Madam Michaud and Mr. Harris will have five minutes each.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Kurek.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Let me start by thanking the witnesses for coming and for being flexible. In these challenging times, your flexibility is very much appreciated.

Mr. Paul, I have a few questions on the situation in Atlantic Canada regarding fisheries. If you would like to take a minute or two of my initial questioning time to wrap up your remarks, that might answer a couple of my questions. If you would like to do that, I would be happy to accommodate.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat

John Paul

Probably one of the most critical things is including us indigenous people in the actual design of how you do policing and how it gets delivered, because if we're not part of the design and then part of the governance of the delivery of it, then we don't actually have a say in the results or outcomes.

The other thing is the need for civilian oversight as a really critical way to conduct evaluation of these activities to demonstrate the actual results of what is coming out of policing to promote fundamental change or improvement in indigenous communities.

You can keep track of numbers, but it's really about how that is contributing to the reduction of racism and how it is contributing to safe resolutions of very difficult issues that face people in our communities.

Our people on and off reserve live in poverty and live with poor health and always end up being the ones who have interactions with the police for whatever reason. The majority of those cases don't end up with a positive outcome. We need to really figure out a way to produce outcomes from interactions with police that are actually good things.

It was apparent when we did have an indigenous policing regime that the indigenous police officers and the governance of the policing really did care about the community. They went out of their way to enforce the laws but also worked towards the betterment and improvement of the community and the people.

Those are things that are critical in terms of any go-forward strategy that is developed.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Damien Kurek Conservative Battle River—Crowfoot, AB

I appreciate that, and I'm glad you had a chance to finish your remarks.

The minister has promised to bring forward new legislation to make first nations policing an essential service and a larger part of policing options across our country. I'm curious to know if anyone has reached out to you to address the issues that a lot of your research has been focused on addressing.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat

John Paul

I've spoken to some of the officials in the minister's office and explained the tragedy that occurred in implementing indigenous policing in the past and how it was basically set up to fail through chronic underfunding, a lack of civilian oversight and a lack of measurable evaluative outcomes.

If it is required to be designated an essential service, they must have the financial resources, the governance and the inclusiveness to make it a real success. Unless those things are built in to what is an essential service, I worry that it will be doomed to the same fate as past policing strategies.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Unfortunately, Mr. Kurek, we're going to have to leave it there.

With that, we have Mr. Iacono for five minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Paul.

As president of the Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat, can you tell us what the main demands and recommendations of the First Nations Chiefs of the Atlantic coast are for the federal government?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat

John Paul

I can't hear any English translation of that. Is there a way to...

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Are we having a problem?

At the bottom of your screen, you'll see a little globe—

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

—and if you press that globe, it says “English” or “French”. If you press “English”—

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat

John Paul

Yes, I did that.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Then let's do a restart with Mr. Iacono.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Very well.

Mr. Paul, can you hear me well?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

That's perfect.

As president of the Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat, can you tell us what the main demands and recommendations of the First Nations Chiefs of the Atlantic coast are for the federal government?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Atlantic Policy Congress of First Nations Chiefs Secretariat

John Paul

I think it's making sure that if it is set up as an essential service, there is indigenous oversight of whatever gets developed, and that the essential policing service is co-designed and a mutual evaluation framework is developed in advance of whatever gets created to ensure it does produce the outcomes and successes that are available.

The other issue is adequacy of resources and training and inclusion of indigenous culture and language in the delivery of policing services, because it is essential in dealing with communities and with the realities of indigenous people. People providing policing services need to understand that reality to be effective and to provide the outcomes that make sense when you have a policing service.

November 18th, 2020 / 4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Mr. Paul, you mentioned earlier that design and delivery are important factors. You also mentioned the civilian oversight and that it was designed to fail.

Can you be clearer on what three major aspects the government should be focusing on to assure ourselves that it's not going to be designed to fail?