Public Safety Committee on July 25th, 2022

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Of the weapons used—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you. The time is up.

Now I will move to Mr. Noormohamed.

Sir, you have the next slot for six minutes. The floor is yours.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and Deputy, for joining us today.

Minister, perhaps you could take a minute and describe the nature of the relationship between the Minister of Public Safety and the commissioner of the RCMP and how that relationship actually works operationally, how it is supposed to work and how it worked in this particular situation.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks very much. I think it's an important question and I appreciate it.

As Minister of Public Safety, I am responsible for a number of different agencies and departments that report to Public Safety and to the Minister of Public Safety. In that reporting relationship, I think there's a very clear and important line of delineation. Under no circumstances can the minister offer or direct operational activities of the RCMP in any way. The minister cannot tell them, for example, who to investigate, what to investigate, what charges should be laid or any aspect of their operational duties. It's a line that I'm quite familiar with. I spent many years as a police chief and I understand the difference between governance and the management and operation of a police service. It's a line I have always respected and continued to respect throughout my entire tenure as the Minister of Public Safety.

The RCMP have a responsibility to be accountable to the people of Canada through the Government of Canada. As the Minister of Public Safety, I am regularly and routinely briefed by the RCMP commissioner on matters of significant national concern, but at no time am I able—nor would I ever—give her any operational direction on any investigative matter. That includes information that would be communicated with the public. Those are decisions are quite appropriately made independently by the police of jurisdiction—in this case, the RCMP—and they are not something that I would ever interfere with.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Just to further clarify, in this situation, during this awful tragedy, was there a time when the commissioner of the RCMP sought your direction or was she also very clear about that line? How would you have handled this had she even asked you for direction?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No. The commissioner did not seek, and has never in my experience in the over two years I've worked with her as the public safety minister sought, my direction on any operational matter.

In the aftermath of this tragic event, the commissioner was providing the Government of Canada, through me, very comprehensive briefings on what had transpired. She was providing us with information about the sequence of events, the number of casualties and some of the challenges they were facing. At the same time, she was very clear on what information was classified and not to be released. I respected that at all times. I think you'll see that I spoke publicly a number of times and was asked very explicit questions about the investigation and certain aspects of the communication. I was clear in every one of those communications that this was an operational matter for the RCMP and that I would not, in any way, interfere.

I think the commissioner is well aware of her responsibilities and her job. It's an awareness that I also possess. I think the two of us had, and continue to have, a very respectful relationship in how we have worked together, understanding where that very bright line is between the role of government and the role of our operational manager—the commissioner of the RCMP.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Speaking very briefly about the briefings you received, was anything out of the ordinary or abnormal—of course, the entire tragedy and horrific incident was abnormal—about the briefings you received, or were these the types of briefings that, in an incident like this, would be part of the normal course of the commissioner's briefings to the minister?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

This was an extraordinary event, to be very clear. It was without precedent in the number of casualties and the horrific impact it had on that community. A number of concerns were being expressed from within the victims' families, by my counterparts in the province of Nova Scotia, by the media and by the community about the lack of information people were receiving about what had transpired. A number of very important questions were arising. I know that this was one of the challenges the commissioner had, on the one hand ensuring and protecting the integrity of their ongoing criminal investigation, and on the other hand ensuring that peoples' questions were answered.

I heard from many of my colleagues on both sides of the House expressing real concern, and understandable concern, about the lack of information and how desperately the families needed that information. So almost from the outset, and this is somewhat unique, there was a discussion taking place within my department, between myself and the deputy minister, as well as my counterpart in the province of Nova Scotia, to review the shootings and to propose terms of reference on a number of matters for a broad review of the mass shooting that had taken place, including the response of the police and steps taken to inform and support affected citizens.

I have that information with me today. I'm happy to share the proposed terms of reference that were developed on April 27. In the very earliest days and hours of this event, we recognized the importance of more fulsome and effective communications with the people impacted by this tragedy.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Minister, with 30 seconds left, I have one very brief question for you.

A lot has been made about timeline and the speed with which an OIC was issued to ban particular weapons after this tragedy. Can you tell this committee very quickly when the work actually started on this and whether or not this tragedy was actually the catalyst or whether this work had been done long before to put those rules into place?

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

You have 10 seconds, Minister.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Very quickly, the list that we produced in the OIC, which contained over 1,500 military-style assault weapons, was a list that took several months to compile. We worked very closely and consulted with the Canadian firearms program to compile that list.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you very much.

I will now turn to Madame Michaud for a six-minute slot.

Madame Michaud, it's good to see you, as always. The floor is yours.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To the Minister of Emergency Preparedness and Deputy Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, thank you for being with us today.

I want to extend my condolences to the loved ones and families of the victims. Although the mass shooting took place in 2020, I think that hearing about it again, given the Mass Casualty Commission and everything that is published daily in the media, reopens wounds that weren't quite closed. So I think a lot about these people, and out of respect for them, I think it's important to be transparent, to give them as much information as possible and to answer their questions to the greatest extent possible. The fact that there are allegations of political interference is quite serious. These people therefore deserve to have their questions answered.

I'll get right to the point.

Minister, you said some interesting things earlier in response to questions from my Conservative colleagues. According to the report on the mass shooting and to the account by Superintendent Darren Campbell, at a meeting on April 28, 2020, RCMP commissioner Brenda Lucki allegedly said she promised you and the Prime Minister that she would release information about the weapons used in the mass shooting, even if it could compromise the investigation. As Mr. Campbell stated, she knew that you would issue a regulation two days later and revealing the weapons used would help your government.

Did you actually have these conversations with Ms. Lucki, during which you would have asked her to publicly disclose the type of weapons used?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you for the question.

No, I did not. I did not ask her to release that information. It wasn't required. The list of weapons that were being prohibited by the order in council that we brought forward on May 1 had taken months to prepare. I did not ask the commissioner to release that information, and nor did she promise me that she would.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

You already gave us this answer in the House. We've also read it in the media.

One thing is troubling me, though. According to the other version, the RCMP version, and based on what we can understand from Ms. Lucki's emails and Mr. Campbell's testimony, this is not the case.

How do you explain the different versions? Essentially, who is telling the truth?

What were the discussions about the regulations enacted a few days later?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

There's only one set of facts. I did not ask the commissioner to reveal that information. She did not promise me that she would.

You're also referring to a conversation that the commissioner had with her subordinates in Nova Scotia, and there's some information that's come forward with that. I was not a party to that discussion and have no knowledge of that discussion. Those questions about that discussion are better put to the participants.

However, I can say unequivocally and with absolute certainty that I did not direct the RCMP commissioner to reveal that information, nor did she promise me that she would do so. In fact, every time I was asked in every media event.... There are many recorded media interviews with me when questions were put to me, including the day we announced the order in council. I was very explicit that day that we were not going to release that information. The decision on when it should be released is entirely up to the RCMP. Subsequently, in the House—and if you go through Hansard you'll see it—many times members of the Conservative Party asked me about information related to that. I said the RCMP is conducting their investigation, and when they're concluded they'll release the information as they see fit.

As I was doing then, I continue to strongly defend the operational independence of the RCMP in making operational decisions regarding their investigations.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Earlier, in response to a question from my colleague, you said that the release date for the regulations, May 1, 2020, was chosen after the Portapique mass shooting.

Did that influence the decisions you made, including what ended up in the regulations? Quite honestly, I get the impression they were drafted on the back of a napkin. They do include the very weapons used in mass murders, but similar models are still on the market and aren't on this list.

After the Portapique mass shooting, what discussions followed about the regulations, which were enacted on May 1, 2020, and about their content?

Did they influence your decisions and policy action on gun control?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think it's important to remind us all that this is a commitment we made. Frankly, the banning and prohibition of assault-style weapons is something I have worked on for many years. We actually campaigned on it in the 2019 election, as you may recall. It was in the throne speech when we became the government. It was also in my mandate letter that we would ban these assault-style weapons. We went right to work. In fact, the work had actually begun in 2019, when I did cross-country consultations and we did surveys and other things to talk about what weapons should be prohibited.

As to the compiling of the list, that's a very interesting characterization. You suggest it was done on the back of a napkin—but it took several months of very hard work to compile that list of over 1,500 weapons. Very clear criteria were established for which weapons would make that list, and that list was compiled over many months.

Let me also be clear, Ms. Michaud, that the terrible tragedy that took place in Nova Scotia, the worst mass casualty shooting event in our country's history, was for me very impactful. All of the work that we had been doing for months and years leading up to that moment certainly had the effect of deepening my resolve to move forward as quickly as possible to keep the promise that we had made to Canadians. We made that to Canadians some time before.

I remind myself that we're not alone in this. For example—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

You have 10 seconds.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—the leader of the NDP, on April 20, urged us to take some action in response to this terrible tragedy. That action was well entrained and we're working very hard on it going forward. Certainly, the terrible events of that event were highly motivating for me to get the job done and to keep—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

Thank you, Minister.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jim Carr]

I would now like to invite Mr. MacGregor to begin his six-minute slot.

Mr. MacGregor, whenever you're ready, the floor is yours.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and welcome to the committee, Minister Blair.

I'd also like to echo my colleague Madame Michaud's comment that our thoughts are with the families in Nova Scotia. I truly want our committee's work today to be respectful of the commission's process and to not really interfere with the important work the commission is doing.

Minister Blair, my first question for you is, do you believe that handwritten notes, especially as they're written during the course of a certain action, are something you can put a lot of stock in? Do you use them personally?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Actually, in confidential briefings I don't personally take notes, but I have previously as a police officer maintained a memo book, for example, which is an aide-mémoire. If it's done contemporaneously with events, it can provide good evidence.