Public Safety Committee on May 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Chiang. You're at five minutes.

[An hon. member]

It was a good try, though, Paul.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

That is good timing indeed.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

From what I understand in the legislative summary, the new Public Complaints and Review Commission that Bill C‑20 will establish won't have the authority to review national security activities. However, in his 2004 report, Justice O'Connor recommended that the review body be empowered to review all RCMP activities, including those related to national security.

In his report, he warned:

The RCMP’s national security activities make up a relatively small proportion of its overall workload. There could be serious risks in entrusting review of national security activities to one body and review of the balance of the RCMP’s activities to another. To start, the different bodies might apply different and possibly inconsistent standards to the same or similar law enforcement activities. Moreover, separating what is properly considered a national security activity from other activities conducted by the RCMP could in many circumstances be difficult, and the existence of separate review bodies could lead to disagreements and jurisdictional disputes.

It's understandable that Justice O'Connor expressed a rather serious concern at the time. However, as I said, under proposed subsection 52(8) of Bill C‑20, the new Public Complaints and Review Commission must refuse to investigate a complaint if it deals with activities closely related to national security.

Why set aside Justice O'Connor's recommendation in Bill C‑20?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think Ms. Michaud is right. This new commission's mandate isn't to study issues related to national security.

However, the government has already established not one, but two other bodies, the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency, which are mandated to review the services of all agencies with a national security portfolio.

So other areas of government have the expertise to reassure all Canadians that our national security agency is properly carrying out its mandate.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Are you not concerned that the various responses from these different bodies will be contradictory?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry, Ms. Michaud, but your time is up.

Mr. Julian, please go ahead. You have two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I'd like to follow up on that issue, because it's clear that Justice O'Connor's report recommended that the treatment be done concurrently.

There are recommendations that have come in to this committee in terms of how to ensure there is a seamless response to concerns. One is that “a definition of 'national security' be added” to the bill. As well, we should ensure that the PCRC can “make rules related to the process for referring national security related complaints and reviews to NSIRA”. Another is that the bill “be amended to require information regarding the number and nature of complaints and reviews that the PCRC has referred to NSIRA be included in the commission's annual report.” It recommends that we also have a path back for the review agency “to refer complaints back to the PCRC if it determines that [they are] not closely related to national security.”

These kinds of amendments will help to ensure a more productive regime and avoid the concerns that Justice O'Connor raised. Are these the kinds of amendments that you would be prepared to entertain, given the concerns that have been raised about the treatment of national security issues with the PCRC?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Julian raises a very important question that touches on the interplay between this new public complaints review commission and other agencies and bodies that have the remit to examine very specifically the national security concerns that were articulated by Justice O'Connor.

As best as I can answer the question for you, Mr. Julian, it would be for the committee to think through how this new commission will work in lockstep with NSICOP and NSIRA to ensure that.... Let's say there may be a complaint where there may be a national security issue. Under the current draft of the bill, that would not be something that could be holus-bolus looked at by the commission, but that matter may be taken up by either NSICOP or NSIRA, so that's where transparency and accountability could be achieved in response to Mr. Justice O'Connor's concerns and recommendations.

I think the way to look at this is really through a holistic approach, which is that the PCRC will be there to raise the bar of independent review and accountability as it pertains to both the RCMP and CBSA, but where someone files a complaint that touches on the matter of national security, other committees and agencies are in place to address those concerns as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

We go now to Ms. Dancho, please, for five minutes.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, I just want to follow up a bit on the NPF questions about making it independent. I appreciate what you said about how there are provincial jurisdiction issues, but I didn't necessarily walk away from your answer with a very clear response of why it wasn't more independent.

The reason I want to harp on this is that I think you would agree that there's been a bit of a morale issue among police forces in the country over the last number of years, for a variety of reasons. Of course, over the last year we've had I think almost 10 police officers pass away on the job through various circumstances, so it's deeply devastating in that regard. There are also movements calling to defund the police. Things like that are extremely tough on police officers, who, as you know, put their lives on the line for us.

I know those are very charged issues, but that does impact the morale. My understanding from talking to police forces and members of the RCMP is that there are recruitment issues. There are not nearly enough people looking to join our RCMP forces. As it is a historic institution, it's deeply sad to see that.

This is an important bill—I'm glad you've brought it forward—but it is ultimately about disciplinary action of police and officers through the complaints process. Again, that's important, as we've all agreed, but I think there should be a corresponding weight to uplifting police officers as well. I'm not convinced, necessarily, that it has been an equal priority for you.

Can you point to something that you may have announced or done lately to improve morale with police and the RCMP and to improve retention and recruitment?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I can point to $390 million that we just announced in the last two weeks to help support police in their work to fight against gun crime and organized crime, Ms. Dancho, $450 million for the CBSA to help them fight crime at the border, four concrete agreements with the United States in a joint forum that we convened a little more than a month ago, and my attendance, my personal attendance, at all but one of the funerals that have occurred in the last time.

While, yes, we are here to fight together—and I genuinely believe that the institutions in the RCMP and the CBSA are united in the cause to fight against racism—it is also important that we recognize that the members who serve in uniform are prepared and have made the ultimate sacrifice. As the Minister of Public Safety, I will defend that work.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

I appreciate that, and I sincerely appreciate that you've been to the funerals. That's very important, particularly for you in your position, to have gone, so thank you for that, but how many police officers will be hired from that and how many border officers?

As you know, the numbers that we have since your government took office in 2015 are...only 25 more additional border agents have been hired, yet there has been a doubling of middle management. Again, we respect our public servants, but that's from 2,000 to 4,000 CBSA employees, from what we understand, at the middle manager level, and only about 25 more frontline officers. Is there a commitment in that funding for more border officers and police officers?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Ms. Dancho, I work very closely with the heads of both of these organizations. We take the best advice on the resources they need. What I think they would tell you is that in me, they have a tireless champion when it comes to giving them the resources they need to do the job, in terms of both funding and legislative authorities.

I think this government's track record bears that out, as I've given very concrete examples.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you.

To be clear, then, there is no requirement in the funding that you announced for hiring more police or more frontline border officers. Is that correct?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We identify strategic priorities. We also leave operational decisions to the police and to the CBSA, to respect their independence.

I think it is important that we recognize collectively that the role of the elected government is to give police those tools and the funding they need, but then to trust the institutions to apportion those resources where they need them most and in a way that is consistent with the priorities that are created by a dialogue that is ongoing.

[Raquel Dancho, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I think Mr. Motz has a concluding question, if he can fit that into 45 seconds.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Sure. Thank you very much.

Minister, as you know, the CBSA contracts out some of its security work to third parties. How do you envision the PCRC dealing with a third party with complaints that the CBSA deals with?

Garda, for example, does CBSA work. It does security and it's responsible...and there have been some complaints and some issues with it in the past.

How does PCRC fit into that scenario?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I am told by our officials that the mandate of the PCRC would extend to contract workers for the CBSA. I want to be sure about that and, certainly, we will be precise in our answer to you. However, as a matter of general principle, there will be some extension of the mandate to general contractors by the CBSA.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

We go now to Mr. Gaheer.

Go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the minister for appearing before this committee.

Minister, you said $390 million is invested, and $121 million of that is going to Ontario. I was there for the announcement. The announcement was very well received, so thank you for that.

I'd like to echo the comments made by my colleague Mr. Noormohamed. As a racialized person, you're often looked at a bit differently, quite frankly, by those in positions of power. I went to school in the U.S., and even though I had legitimate immigration papers—an F1 visa, an H1B—I think practically every single time, I was stopped at the border for a secondary check, so I'm very glad we're bringing this forward.

You mentioned that the PCRC will be required to collect disaggregated race data. Can you explain why it's important they collect this information and, more importantly, what this information will then be used for?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Chair, I also want to thank Mr. Gaheer for his leadership and for bringing his experiences to this table. I know from our conversations, and many others, the need to be constantly vigilant in fighting against racism in all its forms in the interactions between Canadians and law enforcement institutions. It is hard work, but it's necessary. Bill C-20 ought to be seen as a piece of a larger puzzle in the government's strategy to fight against racism.

The piece that Bill C-20 fulfills is giving Canadians an opportunity to submit complaints when they have been mistreated or when either of the two institutions has fallen short. That is through the creation of a process. It is through the creation of timelines. It is through the creation of a mandate that allows, as your question touches on, the collection and disaggregation of race-based data. The latter can not only allow the RCMP and the CBSA to look at the issue from a macro or a systemic point of view, but also be used to inform the way in which we train the members of both of these organizations, so that we can see where those negative interactions may be occurring and reduce the likelihood of those types of interactions.

It can also be used to shed more light on the subject matter. Through the reporting that is required of the PCRC to this office, which will then table the report to Parliament, we can engage with members of this committee and all parliamentarians so we can be sure that we are reducing racism and addressing concerns with the experiences of racialized Canadians and indigenous persons, with whom I have met in my various travels. They recognize that Bill C-20 plays an important role in that broader puzzle, as I said, and the need to address these systemic concerns.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you.

You touched on this a little, but can you elaborate on the need for a CBSA review? What are your expectations for the agency in how they'll comply with this?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Well, in the case of the CBSA specifically, this bill will create a commission that will have the mandate for external independent review through stand-alone legislation. This is a first for the CBSA, as I pointed out in my introductory remarks.

It will enable civilians, who will be able to develop expertise in the area of understanding the professional conduct and systemic issues that may be implicated with the CBSA and the RCMP, to look into complaints, to make recommendations and to do so in a way that is timely, to take a look at various categories of information, including race-based data, and to provide concrete recommendations going forward.

This is new territory for the CBSA. There currently is no mechanism that lies beyond the CBSA, and that is a gap. It is a gap that has existed for far too long, in my opinion. That's why it is urgent that we pass this bill into law as quickly as we possibly can.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you.