Public Safety Committee on Nov. 20th, 2025

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

Perfect, thank you very much.

We hope you will be heard. To ensure better security, it's also important to have modern equipment and be able to acquire it more quickly through a more efficient process.

Mr. Weber, we're surprised to learn today that 200 officers in the adaptation process, who have completed all their training at the Canadian Border Services College in Rigaud and who are experienced, may lose their jobs because they can no longer carry weapons, for all kinds of reasons, be it related to a workplace accident, trauma or something else.

How do you explain the fact that the Canada Border Services Agency, which is already experiencing a labour shortage, can do without 200 experienced officers? They are unarmed officers, but they are still trained and experienced.

How can that figure be interpreted by our neighbours to the south?

How do you explain that decision?

[Mark Weber]

Inexplicably to us, we've brought up the points that you've touched on in your question with the CBSA and have not been provided an adequate answer. The majority of the work that we do does not require a sidearm. There are shortages in almost every mode. It's inexplicable that you would choose to just lose that experience, especially, as you say, when you're looking at the shortage of staff that you are.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

I know that a mathematical and financial calculation has surely been done. Let's say a trained officer is a level 4 and is paid accordingly. If the officer performs tasks that fall slightly below those in that category, a pay cut is definitely possible for a non-armed officer. The fact remains that the officer who is currently in adaptation is doing a job. If we replace that officer with an armed officer, then we lose an officer to ensure the security of our border. Is that correct?

[Mark Weber]

You're absolutely correct.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry—Soulanges—Huntingdon, QC]

In our view, this is a no-brainer. We don't understand the agency's decision in the context of a labour shortage.

We're talking about hiring 1,000 new officers. Personally, I no longer feel that we need 1,000 new officers, but rather 800 armed officers who will be trained at Rigaud. I think it's possible for the agency to achieve that objective. The reason I say 800 officers instead of 1,000 is that I'm taking into consideration the 200 officers who will not be armed and won't take the full training at Rigaud. We heard that from the president of the CBSA.

Three years from now, after Bill C‑12 is implemented and those 800 new officers are hired and trained, where will they be deployed? Are you able to give us an idea? I get the impression that adding 800 officers doesn't really amount to a big increase for each territory to be covered.

[Mark Weber]

The effectiveness of the hires will be in the detail of where they're put. You're right that 800 spread out over the entire country is not actually a huge number. Realistically, we want to see all 800 on the front line. We want to ensure that it's not more middle managers, of whom we already have far too many. That's one of the issues around staffing. They have to be frontline personnel who are actually interacting with travellers.

At the same time that you're hiring those people, the CBSA must get back into the business of speaking with travellers. I touched on it in my opening statement with the one-touch system. We see it with automation at airports, and we see plans around further automation at land borders. We're getting to a point where we're relying almost entirely on self-declaration.

Anyone can self-declare whatever they want. We are there to make sure that the person is declaring what should be declared. We're kind of getting away from that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Thank you, Mr. Weber.

Ms. Kirkland, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Weber, I appreciated your comments in your opening testimony regarding the adequate human presence needed for strong borders. With that come adequate human rights for those who are working at our borders. You mentioned experienced officers sometimes being pushed out of their roles.

We've heard directly from the minister, and it seems he's aware that there are some systemic issues at CBSA.

From your perspective, how widespread is the discrimination or retaliation specifically faced by women who go through something like maternity leave or illness?

[Mark Weber]

The CBSA ranks last in the public service employee survey almost every year. That is not an accident. There is fear of reprisal. There's fear of reporting. There's fear of being subject to an investigation that is not impartial.

Women face far more of those challenges. We do have workplaces that are...I think the word toxic fits. Many of you have probably read about the Danielle Getzie case out of B.C., which is one of the more high-profile ones. That is not unique. It is a challenge.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

For clarity, are we talking about isolated cases, or do you see a broader toxic culture issue?

[Mark Weber]

Yeah, it's a cultural issue. It's at many workplaces across the CBSA.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Can you speak to whether CBSA has a pattern, then, of removing women from acting roles or specialty positions when they become pregnant and go on maternity leave?

[Mark Weber]

We have seen that, yes.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Have you seen multiple cases?

[Mark Weber]

We've seen multiple. I mentioned one with Danielle Getzie, but it does happen. It is often a difficult environment for women to thrive in.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

The National Integrity Centre of Expertise, NICE, is an internal unit of the CBSA, established to handle workplace harassment and violence prevention.

Have your members raised concerns about the fairness or independence of these internal investigators?

[Mark Weber]

They have very often, yes.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

We've seen situations in which labour relations appear to influence or direct harassment in investigations. From the union's perspective, is there an inherent conflict when CBSA investigates itself?

[Mark Weber]

It could be more impartial.

One of the big problems we have with the NICE process is that it leads to recommendations that go through a health and safety committee to put in preventative measures. It fails to address the actions that led to the complaint in any kind of disciplinary manner.

What we see quite often is that on the front line, for a member, the first response of the employer is discipline. When a member brings forward a complaint to NICE about managerial misconduct, it never leads to discipline. It does not lead down that route.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Okay. Just to clarify then, in your experience, when a woman at CBSA becomes pregnant or is diagnosed with, perhaps, a serious illness, is her career safe, or is she more at risk?

[Mark Weber]

I would say that she is more at risk than a man would be. There are policies around that specifically.

We had one with the Danielle Getzie case, around the detector dog service: Essentially, if you're off for more than 90 days, you're automatically removed as a dog handler. This means that having a child is just out of the question. Women are told that when they enter that program.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I have heard from several women who have said this, and I find it alarming that a federal organization is behaving in this manner. No woman in this country should ever have to choose between having a child and keeping her career, yet that is exactly what is happening inside a federal agency under this government.

I have one last quick question before I take my last minute to just read a verbal notice of motion.

Has the CBSA president—

[The Chair, Liberal, Jean-Yves Duclos]

Madam Kirkland, that is fine. You can do that, but it's going to eat into your time.

[Rhonda Kirkland, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I understand that. You stopped my time just then, did you? Thanks.

Has the CBSA president ever engaged with your union to acknowledge, investigate or correct any systemic discrimination?

[Mark Weber]

We've met with high-level representatives and directly with the president. On the case I mentioned, we have not, no.