Evidence of meeting #27 for Science and Research in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was institutions.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Sheila Jasanoff  Pforzheimer Professor of Science and Technology Studies, Harvard University, As an Individual
Normand  President and Chief Executive Officer, Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne
O'Neil  Vice-President, Research and Innovation, Simon Fraser University

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 27 of the Standing Committee on Science and Research. The committee is meeting to study governance and accountability of federal science policy and institutions.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses, as well as the members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English, or French.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would like to welcome our witnesses for the first panel.

Today, we are joined by Sheila Jasanoff, professor of science and technology studies from Harvard University. She is joining us by video conference.

Welcome.

We are also joined in person by Martin Normand, president and chief executive officer for Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne.

We are joined by video conference by Dugan O'Neil, vice-president for research and innovation from Simon Fraser University.

Welcome to all of the witnesses. Thanks a lot for appearing before the committee.

All of you will have five minutes for your opening remarks, and then we will proceed to the rounds of questioning.

We will start with Professor Jasanoff.

Professor Sheila Jasanoff Pforzheimer Professor of Science and Technology Studies, Harvard University, As an Individual

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for inviting me to speak to this committee.

Your meeting comes at a crucially important time in the evolution of public support for science. My hope is to contribute insights from some 40 years of studying federal science policy in the U.S., informed by my discipline of science and technology studies, STS.

To begin, in democratic societies, the public has a right to ask that policies for science and innovation are being made for the benefit of the public as a whole. Therefore, in principle, we must have procedures to ensure the accountability of federal science and institutions. The question is not whether such a function should exist, but how it should be institutionalized and implemented.

This is not a new issue. How to hold publicly funded research accountable has been a topic of recurrent debate in the U.S. ever since the 1946 Administrative Procedure Act asked federal agencies to be answerable to the public for their uses of expert evidence.

In this century, the U.S. debate has often centred on the efficacy and integrity of federal science policy in areas of high public concern, such as health, environment and security. Is the government funding research that is reliable, useful, innovative and productive of public benefit? Are the funding policies and the researchers themselves properly answerable to the public?

Three points stand out from these debates that this committee may wish to consider.

First, accountability comes at a cost. A significant fraction of the costs of oversight are passed on to investigators, and they consume time, money and resources that could otherwise be dedicated to research. In my own experience, reporting burdens are continually ratcheted up and seldom relaxed. While the goals are often laudable, one-size-fits-all measures, such as the U.S. National Science Foundation's broader impacts criterion, can be onerous for early career researchers, inconsistently administered and too routinized to serve their original purpose.

Second, transparency can be a double-edged sword. In principle, the public has a right to know what public money is being used for. As Justice Brandeis famously put it, in government, sunshine is the best disinfectant, yet the principle of transparency has always been subject to limits when it comes to scientific data. Most obviously, data that could put vulnerable subjects at risk or violate their privacy should not be in the public domain. Even a presumption of full disclosure can prove detrimental in some contexts, such as public health epidemiology, because it shifts the burden of justifying non-disclosure to the researcher. As U.S. experience illustrates, transparency demands can be politically leveraged to discourage research that might otherwise be of great public benefit.

Transparency also presupposes that those to whom data is being disclosed are qualified to assess what is being shown. This is a risky presumption in the case of highly technical information, for which some level of baseline familiarity is needed to make sense of flaws in the research design or research results. In general, transparency provisions are most effective when the process of disclosure attends to how and by whom the research will be evaluated. Mandated data dumps rarely produce public benefit and may discourage important research from being undertaken. By contrast, well-structured review processes that include a diversity of viewpoints, such as the reviews conducted by the U.S. National Research Council, tend to yield higher-quality results.

Lastly, the committee has been asked to consider the establishment of an independent body or function to ensure the accountability of federal science policies. In my estimation, such centralization would be a mistake. It is reminiscent of the demand in the early years of the Reagan administration to centralize the capacity for risk assessment in the U.S. federal government. An influential National Research Council report concluded that such centralization would impose a conceptual straitjacket on research in diverse fields designed to meet widely varying public purposes.

While the analogy is not perfect, some arguments from that example remain highly relevant today. Science, despite flaws and occasional wrong turns, remains one of the most effective self-correcting human institutions, partly because, as the sociologist Robert Merton pointed out in the 1940s, scientists depend on the reliability of each other's work.

Further, science is not unitary, and criteria for responsible research vary widely across fields. As recent U.S. experience shows, centralized agencies, such as our Office of Management and Budget, are more readily captured by bias and ideology than the decentralized institutions of science, and hence can lose their independence.

In sum, well-designed, open and responsible review processes tailored to specific institutional contexts can do more to ensure—

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting. Your time is up. Can you please wind up in the next 10 seconds?

11:10 a.m.

Pforzheimer Professor of Science and Technology Studies, Harvard University, As an Individual

Professor Sheila Jasanoff

I'm in my last sentence.

They can do more to ensure good governance and accountability than a centralized audit system that is insensitive to the need for flexibility and evidence-driven course correction in scientific research.

Thank you again for your attention.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

We will proceed to Mr. Normand.

Please go ahead. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Martin Normand President and Chief Executive Officer, Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne

Thank you.

Canada's research excellence has been nurtured in a science and research ecosystem where a wealth of ideas stems from anglophone, francophone and indigenous scientific traditions. Both at home and abroad, the French‑speaking scientific community contributes to the growth of Canadian innovation, the progress of communities and the vitality of the Canadian identity.

However, as noted in our report from the summit conference on post‑secondary education in francophone minority communities and in a 2021 Acfas report, the science and research ecosystem in francophone minority communities faces complex challenges, structural inequities and precarious conditions. Despite the government's optimism about the granting councils' measures to promote research in French, particularly in its responses concerning scientific research and publication in French and the distribution of funding among post‑secondary institutions, the measures taken aren't enough to overcome the ongoing inequities.

To promote an ecosystem where the scientific communities of each official language participate equally, federal science policies must adhere to clear principles of transparency and accountability. An independent body can serve this type of purpose. However, we would like to make it clear that, in terms of science governance and accountability, the Official Languages Act provides all the necessary tools for French‑language research to flourish.

Part VII of the act sets out the federal government's commitments and the obligations of its institutions to enhance the vitality of francophone communities, to promote and protect French in Canada and to advance lifelong French‑language learning. These commitments are implemented through mechanisms for dialogue and consultation, analysis, evaluation and monitoring, positive measures and reporting. The part VII regulations will also guide these procedures at all stages of government decision‑making. The institutions have clear guidelines for a liberal, equitable and restorative consideration of the government's actions to boost research and innovation in the country.

As we told this committee earlier, the federal granting councils must uphold their responsibilities by fulfilling all their obligations under the Official Languages Act. While the act explicitly recognizes the precarious situation of French, this recognition should consistently result in measures to create and disseminate information in French that contributes to the advancement of scientific knowledge in any discipline. A number of federal institutions have already brought their activities in line with language obligations. The federal institutions responsible for science policy must follow suit.

In terms of scientific governance, we recommended mandatory francophone representation in research decision‑making agencies in our brief to the External Advisory Panel on the Creation and Dissemination of Scientific Information in French. This francophone representation also stems from the Longfield report, which called for the creation of a French‑language science office. The external advisory panel's report will hopefully be published at the end of March. Its recommendations will play a key role in modernizing the French‑language science and research ecosystem. This study's consideration of the report would help to pinpoint shortcomings in governance, responsibility and reporting with regard to French‑language research.

In terms of reporting, the main challenge concerns the collection, distribution and analysis of data on francophone minority communities. The act already provides for analyses, evaluation and monitoring mechanisms and the publication of results and data. By ensuring the full implementation of federal institutions' language obligations, we would have the data needed to closely monitor funding, measure the progress of French‑language research and concretely assess its local impact.

The Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages' report entitled “Breaking Down Language Barriers in Health Care”, published a few days ago, provides a concrete example of the current shortcomings and a consistent implementation of the act. A number of recommendations were made to support health care research and training by applying French‑language lenses, building data collection capacity and implementing consultation and reporting procedures. The Official Languages Act gives us all the tools that we need. The federal institutions just need to implement it.

That's why we recommend that the federal institutions responsible for implementing science policies in Canada adopt a robust implementation plan for their language obligations under the Official Languages Act.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

Now we will proceed to Mr. O'Neil for five minutes.

Dugan O'Neil Vice-President, Research and Innovation, Simon Fraser University

Good morning.

Thank you, Madam Chair and the committee, for the opportunity to address you today.

Before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge that I'm speaking to you today from the traditional and unceded territory of the Musqueam, Squamish, Tsleil-Waututh and Kwikwetlem nations.

I welcome the chance to speak about the governance and accountability of federal science policy and institutions.

As many of you know, Simon Fraser University is a leading research university based in British Columbia. SFU has more than 35,000 students across three campuses in Burnaby, Surrey and Vancouver, some of Canada's most diverse communities.

For nearly six decades, SFU has participated in Canada's federal research ecosystem through granting councils, national research infrastructure programs, research chairs and collaborative innovation initiatives. It's through this lens that SFU sees first-hand how governance choices affect accountability, risk management and research outcomes.

SFU strongly supports robust parliamentary oversight of science policy. My remarks today focus on two areas where governance design matters, particularly for protecting public trust and maximizing the value of federal research investments.

I will first address the governance of major research and the security of sensitive data.

Canada has invested in world-class research. In the process of their work, Canadian researchers collect particularly sensitive information, including information on sexual orientation or disability status that individuals may not have consented to disclose. Canada's granting agencies already have the capacity to conduct relevant analyses internally and to provide aggregated data in response to committee requests or questions placed on the Order Paper. Additionally, each agency already has specific mechanisms that allow them to evaluate specific risks, legal obligations and the feasibility of appropriate de-identification. This allows Parliament to receive meaningful system-level insight while avoiding unnecessary risks to personal privacy or to the integrity of the peer review process, both of which are essential to maintaining public confidence in federal funding decisions.

Second, oversight mechanisms are most effective when they're aligned with the time horizons and risk profiles of the programs they assess. In the case of scientific research, impacts often unfold over decades, which poses challenges for traditional audit and evaluation models. This does not mean that long-term scientific investment should escape scrutiny. Rather, it suggests that accountability mechanisms must be designed to reflect long-time horizons, uncertainty and cumulative impact, using portfolio-level evaluation, expert review and forward-looking performance indicators, rather than retrospective judgment of individual funding decisions.

In closing, effective science governance is about ensuring that oversight mechanisms strengthen public trust, protect individuals and support long-term national interests.

I welcome questions from the committee on how accountability frameworks can best achieve these goals.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Mr. O'Neil.

With that, we will start our first round of questioning.

We will start our first round of six minutes with MP DeRidder.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today.

Through you, Chair, my questions will be to you, Mr. O'Neil, as the vice-president of research and innovation.

Given that we hold only about 12% of the patents generated here and that roughly 80% of our Canadian-developed IP is foreign-owned, from an accountability perspective, do you think that federal research funding should be more directly tied to ensuring that economic and societal benefits remain here in Canada?

11:20 a.m.

Vice-President, Research and Innovation, Simon Fraser University

Dugan O'Neil

Yes, it is true that we have to do work in Canada to ensure that the intellectual property that is created through Canadian research provides the maximum benefit to Canadian citizens and Canadian taxpayers.

The numbers that you quoted are concerning. I would point out, however, that the breadth of research in the Canadian system means that there's research that's being supported by the federal government that is not on the edge of becoming intellectual property and of financial benefit to Canadian companies. It's very early-stage research that somewhere down the line will potentially lead to something with long-term economic benefit.

We do need to strengthen our system to support the translation of the knowledge we create into products, policies and societal change that benefit Canadians, but there's a whole spectrum of research that's part of that system that needs to be supported well if it's going to provide the final benefit that we want for our citizens.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I agree wholeheartedly that there is the early research, but it's when it comes to the point of commercialization that we're missing the economic impact for Canadians.

Would you agree that there is not a strong system in Canada to turn research into commercialization, where we would see the economic benefit?

11:20 a.m.

Vice-President, Research and Innovation, Simon Fraser University

Dugan O'Neil

I can't say that I agree fully with that. I think we can do better, but we have many examples, including examples out of my own university, of university inventions being turned into innovations and being turned into companies that employ many Canadians, and over a long history, over decades.

There are areas we should definitely strengthen, but I would not agree that the system is failing Canadians in general, if that's your question.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I'm not suggesting that we're failing in general, but it is clear that right now, it's costing up to $75 billion yearly—2.7% of our GDP and $5 billion of lost tax revenue—for not commercializing here in Canada.

While I can agree that there are some jobs created, what I'm seeing is that we have 20 Canadian universities that have partnered with Huawei on hundreds of patents. These patents are going to foreign companies whose technology we've banned, and our research is paying for that.

Where is the accountability to ensure that our IP and our innovation remain in Canadian ownership today?

11:20 a.m.

Vice-President, Research and Innovation, Simon Fraser University

Dugan O'Neil

In terms of accountability, it can be very difficult to trace where everything comes from over a long period of time and to apply it, but I would say that something we haven't been great at in Canada is making the technologies we create.

The words we tend to use in the system are “to make them sticky”, to make them stick to Canada, to make them have the maximum benefit here before they're purchased and potentially moved to another jurisdiction.

If you ask me what part of the system needs the most help, it's probably investment to make Canadian technologies sticky. That includes infrastructure and it includes venture capital funding. It includes all sorts of things that would help Canadian researchers translate their discoveries into IP that stays here.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly DeRidder Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

You touched on something that I agree with, which is the infrastructure piece. When we're funding infrastructure for research, we have to also ensure that it's not going to foreign companies.

For example, we had an IP lawyer give recent testimony about the U.S. CLOUD Act and other American laws that put our digital sovereignty at risk. Right now, we're not prioritizing our public funding around data infrastructure to ensure that it remains sovereign when the data is here on Canadian soil and is generated by Canadian companies.

Where do you think we can do better with governance in research to ensure accountability and ensure that our data is sovereign and secure?

11:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Research and Innovation, Simon Fraser University

Dugan O'Neil

Simon Fraser University runs Canada's largest academic supercomputing centre. It hosts sensitive and less sensitive Canadian data for researchers right across the country. There are 17,000 researchers that access our systems from coast to coast, so we're strong believers in creating sovereign infrastructure. We also collaborate with large companies—for example, from the U.S.—on various things. We do that as well.

However, having a sovereign infrastructure, including data storage that is both secure and sovereign—

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up. Thank you.

We will now proceed to MP Deschênes-Thériault for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I would like to thank our three witnesses.

For this first round, I'll put my questions mainly to Mr. Normand.

Today's motion focuses on science policy analysis and accountability, particularly given the recommendation to create a new independent body. However, I gather from your remarks that the French‑language research ecosystem, in principle, already has the necessary tools to meet the needs of the sector, particularly through the robust implementation of the Official Languages Act. Part VII of the act calls for positive measures to support the creation and dissemination of information in French.

However, I noticed that you used the conditional tense in your remarks. Can you explain what's missing? If we have the necessary tools, especially since we're studying draft regulations for the implementation of part VII, what should we improve?

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne

Martin Normand

I used the conditional tense for a number of reasons. First, as you said, the Standing Committee on Official Languages is currently studying the draft regulations. We have many concerns about this draft, which I can share in another forum later today.

In addition, we detect a long‑standing reluctance on the part of federal institutions responsible for science policy to implement measures to make progress towards substantive equality in French‑language research. This committee published some reports with specific recommendations concerning French‑language science. The government's responses showed that the institutions were brushing aside the concerns raised by French‑speaking researchers in particular.

Moreover, our network's member institutions filed a complaint with the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages regarding the granting councils. Even though a number of years have passed and ample opportunities have arisen to implement these recommendations, we're now confronted with the commissioner's findings. These findings show that nothing has been done to ensure the robust implementation of the recommendations and the language obligations of these institutions.

The infrastructure is in place. However, the institutions seem reluctant to recognize that these obligations also apply to the granting councils and the other federal institutions responsible for funding research. Hence our call for a robust implementation plan for the Official Languages Act. We hope that the part VII regulations will bring this approach to all federal institutions. It doesn't seem to be the case at the moment. However, the regulations require federal institutions to measure the possible negative impact of their decisions. This calls for better data production infrastructure in each institution.

Given these obligations, with robust regulations, the federal institutions responsible for science policy must acquire the tools needed to fulfill their obligations under the Official Languages Act.

Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

In your response, you referred to the external advisory group's upcoming report on the creation and dissemination of scientific information in French. You must have taken part in the consultations held on this topic.

What are your expectations? Why did you refer to the significance of this report, particularly with regard to governance and accountability in science policy?

11:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne

Martin Normand

First, we hope that this report will be published as quickly as possible so that we can all get down to work. The panel was set up with funding made available under the action plan for official languages. If we want the next action plan, 2028–2033, to include new measures to implement the panel's recommendations, we need to get started quickly.

Second, for me, it's also the culmination of a whole series of consultations on French‑language science and research. I referred to the summit conference on post‑secondary education held by the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne three years ago. I also referred to the 2021 Acfas report on French‑language research conditions in minority communities. This committee also carried out a study on the challenges of publishing and carrying out research in French.

We don't lack information on the structural inequities when it comes to support for French‑language research in the country. We hope that this panel set up by the federal government will provide the catalyst and the tool to propel us forward and to imagine how we can take collective and innovative action to overcome the inequities documented over the years.

Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

You also referred in your remarks to your recommendations for governance, particularly within the current structures.

Can you talk a bit about these recommendations, particularly for granting agencies, in terms of what has been implemented and what could be done?

11:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne

Martin Normand

A number of us hope that, with the creation of a new common structure for the granting councils, for example, a French‑language research office will be set up within this institution to continuously monitor the required measures and the data made available. We would like to see this initiative if we move in this direction.

We also think that the official languages should be integrated throughout the decision‑making apparatus, and not just in a dedicated office with an advisory mandate. There must be francophones or a francophone lens used throughout the federal institution, not just in an office dedicated to the official languages.

In short, we're calling for francophone representation in the decision‑making apparatus and the creation of new tools for reporting and generating data on the French‑language research ecosystem.

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you. The time is up.

We will now proceed to MP Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes, please.