Status of Women Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 28 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website, and the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Today our committee is resuming its study on sexual misconduct within the Canadian Armed Forces.

For the benefit of the witnesses, comments should be addressed through the chair, and if you want interpretation, there is a button at the bottom of your screen where you can choose English or French.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly for our translators, and when you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I now welcome our witnesses, who will begin our discussions with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by questions.

First of all, we have Major-General Steven Whelan, who is the acting commander of military personnel command and chief of military personnel; and we also have Mr. Kin Choi, the assistant deputy minister for human resources.

We're going to begin with Mr. Choi. You have five minutes and you may start.

[Kin Choi, Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources, Civilian, Department of National Defence]

Thank you.

Good evening, Madam Chair and committee members. Thank you for the invitation to participate in this discussion in my capacity as the assistant deputy minister of civilian human resources for the Department of National Defence.

I have been a member of the public service for over 29 years, having held a number of positions in a variety of departments. The national defence team is a large, complex organization that includes public servants and military members and that extends across Canada and abroad. The team has 18 different collective agreements that encompass approximately 70 occupational groups, including administrative support, technical trades, defence research and scientists. Most of these groups are represented by the 10 different unions with which we work.

In my role as the assistant deputy minister of civilian human resources, I'm largely responsible for four core functions: compensation, healthy workplace, diversity and inclusion and labour relations, which affect approximately 26,000 public service employees.

My team oversees a number of areas relating to people management, including staffing, learning and development, classification and organizational design, labour relations and compensation. As well, we are responsible for developing and implementing plans, policies and programs to recruit, develop and retain diverse individuals to ensure the Canadian Armed Forces are supported at home and abroad. In all aspects of our work we are committed to upholding the defence team's values of ethics, integrity and the well-being of our employees.

Though important steps have been taken to address the overall health and well-being of the defence team, clearly we have much work to do to effect enduring change. It is imperative that we continue to pursue this change in order to rebuild an environment of trust, respect and accountability reflective of the Canadians we serve. We will listen to all perspectives and make informed decisions to ensure that our core values lead to this meaningful change.

Finally, in my capacity as head of human resources for our public service employees, I take my responsibilities as functional authority for workplace harassment, discrimination and implementation of Bill C-65 very seriously to ensure fairness and due process, regardless of rank or position.

I acknowledge that there may be questions related to ongoing complaints; however, I will be unable to address the specific nature of these cases, as they are addressed through the independent process and recourse mechanism currently available to complainants.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's very good.

Now we will have Major-General Whelan for five minutes.

[Major-General Steven Whelan, Acting Commander Military Personnel Command and Chief Military Personnel, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Madam Chair and committee members, for inviting me today to participate in this committee discussion in my capacity as acting commander of military personnel command for the Canadian Armed Forces, a position I have held for just about a month.

The military personnel command is responsible for the management of many of the personnel policies that support all members of the CAF, both full-time and part-time, as well as their families. This includes: recruiting, basic training, professional military education, health services, strategy, career management, compensation and benefits, support to families, transition services, history and heritage, and honours and recognition.

In essence, the role of military personnel command is that of an important enabler for the Canadian Armed Forces. We recruit, develop and support all of our members so that they can be their very best in their service to Canada.

Like many of my colleagues who have appeared before this committee, I have over 30 years of service, and in that time, I have observed an evolution of our organization.

The CAF of today is not what it was when I joined in 1990. I see a more diverse force at every level, and it has made us better. Our differences make our team and our culture stronger, more effective, and more resilient, both at home and abroad. While there has been so much positive change, I know and we know that there is still a great deal of work that needs to be done to make the Canadian Armed Forces a more welcoming and safe environment for all of our members. I know we have great people and great leaders at all levels who are committed to making the forces better, and I am one of them.

All members must be able to trust that the CAF will be there for them throughout their careers, from recruits to veterans, from cradle to grave. CAF members must know that the institution is there to support them at the beginning of their careers in basic training and in our military colleges. CAF must be there for them during their careers, through merit-based promotions and our health services to foster their career aspirations, and at the end of their careers to be there with our transition services to ensure a positive adjustment out of uniform into civilian life. Every person must feel part of our team at every stage of their career.

I know our culture needs to continue to change so that we can reach our full potential as an institution in the service of Canada and continue to reflect Canadian society and its values. To energize that culture change, every member of the defence team, military or civilian, must treat their teammates with respect, dignity and honour.

We all agree we need to strive to be more equitable, more diverse and more inclusive. We also need to work to regain the trust that has been lost from some of our teammates. To do so, we need to first listen and learn, and then act upon those recommendations. These issues don't just affect select individuals; they impact the entire defence team. We recognize that our culture needs to change and we're e committed to making that happen.

Madam Chair, thank you for your time. I look forward to answering questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you so much.

We will begin our first round of questions. We'll start with Ms. Sahota for six minutes.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Major-General Whelan, you just spoke about being in this role for about a month or so. Could you provide details of the circumstances under which your predecessor was removed from his position, and how you became the acting commander in this position?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

My previous job was the deputy commander of military personnel command. Within the military structure, when a leader is unable to perform his duties or is absent, the deputy commander steps up.

In the case of my supervisor, I'm unable to comment on the current status of Admiral Edmundson, as I am not privy to those details. What I can say is that sexual misconduct has no place in the Canadian Armed Forces, and when an allegation is made, regardless of the rank, there is a process to be followed that has to respect all stakeholders.

At this time, I'm unable to give you any further details, other than that I have been appointed by the chief of the defence staff and have willingly stepped forward to take command of the organization at this time.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

You also said in your presentation that the Canadian Armed Forces is better than it was before. We had sexual misconduct in the 1990s and we see it today. We've had witnesses come before us over and over again to tell us their stories. They tell us that investigations weren't conducted and evidence was lost. We still don't have 25% female representation in the Canadian Armed Forces.

What makes you think it's better now than it was before?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

The words I used were that the Canadian Forces are better now than when I joined in 1990. When I joined in 1990, there was no such thing as diversity. There was no such thing as policies for people. There were no policies for family. There was a running joke: “If we wanted you to have a family, we would have issued you one.” There were no support networks for families. There was no mental health support. There was no discussion of inclusivity. We didn't have harassment policies when I joined the Canadian Forces, which was a year after women were allowed to join any trade in the Canadian Forces.

From my perspective, notwithstanding that we do have these issues, the forces are still better now than when I started in 1990, 30 years ago.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

You spoke about there being no place for sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces. We would agree with you. That's why we're here discussing how to change the culture so that this doesn't happen to women anymore.

As the most senior military member responsible for military personnel, how would you reassure all those in uniform that the generals and admirals leading the Canadian Forces will act with honour and integrity, embodying the highest level of military professional conduct, when former chiefs of the defence staff General Vance and Admiral McDonald, as well as your predecessor Admiral Edmundson, are all currently under investigation for behaviour that is diametrically opposed and runs counter to everything they swore an oath to uphold?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

That's a great question, and it's a hard question. That's why we're having these conversations right now. We have to figure out what we need to do to make the profession better than it is and make the institution that I think Canadians want.

I'll make a comment about what culture is and how I see it coming together in terms of how you framed the question.

The culture is really what we value and how we curate it in the Canadian Forces. I accept the criticism that senior leaders have allegedly acted contrary to the behaviours they rejected while they were in uniform—and some are still in uniform—but the fact of the matter is that this culture is what we value, so there are no easy solutions right now.

I'll steal a line from one of my leaders, who is responsible for recruiting and training. She said to me, “General Whelan, we're not living up to the better values of our profession,” and I think she is absolutely right. Our culture—

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Can there be a culture change if the senior leaders I listed are not held accountable?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

Anybody, regardless of rank, absolutely has to be held accountable. There is a process in place that energizes and applies itself when these allegations take place, and that process is in play at this time.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

How would you change the culture, then? Operation Honour was a failure. What would you do differently?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

That's hard to say in a 30-second sound bite, but what I can say from a military personnel perspective is that I can at least initiate the changes to things and processes that are under my authority.

For me it starts with people. It starts with making sure that people start by respecting themselves. I don't need training courses and professional development programs to tell people this and to enforce the rules to make sure they respect people. However, what I can change in the Canadian Forces are some of the functions I'm responsible for. We need to change the face of Canadian Forces recruiting, both who does it and how we do it, because Canadians need to see themselves in the faces of the recruiters and in the lived experience of those recruiters if they think they want to join the Canadian Forces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's very good.

Thank you.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor for the next six minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Major-General Whelan, thank you for your service. I also want to thank Mr. Choi for his commitment to finding solutions.

My first question is for the two witnesses. I want to focus on the victims and survivors. Given the many people you must work with in the Canadian Armed Forces and in the Department of National Defence, what steps have you taken to increase the confidence of survivors and to ensure that every workplace is respectful and safe?

Major-General Whelan, you can go first, and Mr. Choi can respond after you.

[MGen Steven Whelan]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll make a general comment about trust, then if we want to go deeper, we can.

How do I win back the trust of the survivors, the victims, our teammates who are questioning whether the leadership is serious about leading the Canadian Forces? I've learned in my 30 years that it's really hard to get people to trust me, but I've also learned that it takes one second to lose the trust of our teammates. I know that trust has been broken with our teammates, and that loss is devastating to me, and that was reinforced to me when I listened to the testimony on Tuesday. I have a daughter who's 22 years old and considering joining the Canadian Forces. It was like a punch in the gut, and I still feel it even right now as I'm speaking.

Our whole team is watching us to see what we're going to do, and that's what we're doing. I take that responsibility very seriously. We are listening, and I think that's what we need to do initially—hear our members—because I don't think we've given them the voice they have asked for. I have been listening, and I'll tell you that some of what I hear is ugly and it's uncomfortable. I'm still processing it, but I'm committed to trying to make a difference as we move forward.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Mr. Choi, would you comment?.

[Kin Choi]

Madam Chair, I think a really important point has been raised by General Whelan, which is that we have work to do to build trust.

While we have myriad programs already in place across the public service, and national defence public service employees are part of that, I think the tone needs to be set at the top. We have to look at how we're building our executive cadre, how we're providing them with support and training, providing them with the right compass and direction in what we expect from them as leaders. I think we're on that path right now, but a lot of work remains to be done.

Thank you.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

General Whelan, you alluded to this a bit. We've heard extensively how the fear of reprisal creates barriers for survivors wanting to come forward. How can we better protect the safety of people who come forward while also respecting their confidentiality?

[MGen Steven Whelan]

First of all, reprisals go against everything we are in the Canadian Forces. No defence team member should ever feel unsafe or alone in an organization that talks about teamwork the way we do. I saw the stories last night and I listened and I'm sorry that my teammate who was listed in one of the media articles has felt afraid to be named.

Reprisals have no place in the Canadian Forces. Leaders who engage in reprisals have no place in the Canadian Forces. We owe that support and that respect to those who trust us, the families and members who trust us for their own safety. Essentially, reprisals are about the use of power, not the abuse of it.

One of the things we need to do is to focus on what leaders understand to be their boundaries and whether they understand their responsibilities. I am an infantry officer and I was brought up to understand that leadership is a privilege that must be curated.

Thank you.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, General.

Mr. Choi, do you have anything that is related to reprisals to add to that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

You're on mute, Mr. Choi.

[Kin Choi]

I'm sorry, Madam Chair. I had technical difficulties with the translation. I couldn't hear. I was trying to slip back and forth. Can the question be repeated, please?