Transport Committee on Jan. 12th, 2023

[Andrew Gibbons]

Do you mean with respect to tarmac specifically?

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I mean with respect to extraordinary situations such as the one that we just encountered.

[Andrew Gibbons]

What the government actually did from Labour Day on was conduct a weekly meeting at the highest levels of Transport Canada with all airports and air carriers. That is a legacy piece that stems from COVID, but the Government of Canada, to its credit, has actually continued this. There is a high level of regular calls and identification of issues.

With respect to failure, there are the operational issues and the operational decisions we made, which we stand fully and squarely behind. Then there are questions that Ms. Damoff and others have asked, such as what we do when things go wrong and what our plans are when things go wrong. We're going to address that, and we're going to be doing a lot of that work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Right.

Thank you, Mr. Gibbons.

Thank you, Mr. Doherty.

Next we have Ms. Diab.

Ms. Diab, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses who are appearing here today.

I flew this morning from Halifax. I think all of us across the country can acknowledge that what happened in December was a mess and was chaotic. The stand that I would like to take is similar to that of a couple of the members who have already asked questions.

None of us can prevent storms and weather, and we know things happen when they do. The issue that I want to concentrate on is the poor communication and lack of communication with customers and clients and whether the airline knows that the aircraft is going to be delayed or cancelled or whatever for minutes or hours. I personally was caught when I tried to leave Ottawa in December for Toronto but we couldn't depart due to weather. I had called in the morning and was told everything was going to be fine. Had I known, I could have had us rerouted and we could have gone to Montreal, because in Montreal things are usually a little bit better, as I was told. We got on a flight to Montreal 24 hours later and then we were stuck in Montreal because the international aircraft could not depart because of mechanical problems. Things happen; sometimes they're controllable and sometimes they're not.

The issue here is communication. I saw so many people lying down in the airports. People were getting angry and frustrated, and I felt for the staff who were there. There was no communication and none of them knew what was going to happen. Some people were lucky to have lounge access. A lot of people have apps and those said they were boarding. You're going there and you're left waiting for hours and there's no boarding.

I'll start with Air Canada, because it happened to be an Air Canada flight, but it was probably the same with other carriers as well.

What are you doing to improve this communication? Clearly it's not happening. People understand there are difficulties, but there's really no answer when there is no communication to customers.

[Kevin O'Connor]

I apologize for the disruption you suffered during your trip with us.

You're absolutely right. When we do things right, communication is the key thing. When you have weather events, especially winter storms, they generally don't just pop up. We have advance notice, which is why we put weather alerts out and we have goodwill policies alerting people to things that could potentially happen.

The one thing I will say is that there are a number of knock-on effects, so as the day goes on and as things change, flights can have further delays or cancellations for multiple reasons. There's not just one reason. I can see that being confusing. You brought up that there was a mechanical issue on a wide-body plane. That was not known in advance. It was not known in the morning, and if that's the case, that happened in real time. However, we have invested and are investing in lots of new technology to try to communicate with and train our personnel who have the responsibility to forecast flights, and it is something we strive for. One of our top priorities is that communication is key. Even if your flight is cancelled and the news is not great, it should be as far in advance as possible.

People have said that this isn't our first winter; we've had winters before. The key is that if we have to cancel—and we've cancelled in previous years as well—we cancel early if we are not able to operate, and that does keep people away. It does disrupt their travel, but the early communication is a tool that we try to use here and then we add as much capacity early on as possible.

I'll just make one point. December 23, Friday, is the busiest travel date, but we still carried 90,000 people that day. What we did know was that the storm was going to be continent-wide. We put alerts out early to try to move people on the Thursday. Thursday was not going to be our busiest day but it ended up being our busiest day of the entire travel period as we tried to proactively move people prior to the storm, not after.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I would say the difficulty started back in mid-December, if not earlier, due to storms and everything else.

I'll go back to communication and staffing.

I sympathize with the staff, but it was an international flight. We were on the tarmac for quite a bit. Finally people were unloaded. The plane was packed. We had to go to customs, clear customs, get our luggage and get out, but there was no staff there to tell people what to do.

What are the policies and how do you do that? What should customers rely on to get proper communication? What is the policy with Air Canada?

If I have time, I'll go to WestJet next.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Unfortunately, Ms. Diab, we're out of time for that.

We can ask our witnesses to perhaps submit a written response.

Thank you, Ms. Diab.

Ms. Vignola, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Gentlemen, I spoke earlier about the notion of safety, which sometimes seems to be invoked for a host of reasons. When someone buys a ticket, they are entering into a contract with a carrier and therefore they expect their safety to be optimal. I think everyone here wants that safety to be optimal.

Now, if the lack of personnel justifies the use of this safety concept, would there not be a flaw in this concept here, which should be reviewed to properly frame it?

[Andrew Gibbons]

I think I have the point of your question. Obviously, our industry is one of the safest forms—if not the safest form—of travel around, and safety is first and foremost.

To your point, in a disruption when we, as an airline, start to back up and we have people in the halls, etc.... These become security concerns for our frontline staff and for others, so I absolutely agree. That's when we try to be proactive. One of the best things....

I'll bring up December 23, which had both a significant snow event in Vancouver, starting around nine in the morning, and a continual flash freeze and icing event in Toronto. On both of those days, we took a proactive approach. What we didn't want was that exact same situation with cancellations that can happen in the moment. That's always the worst-case scenario. You're right there and you have the expectation, and it's taken away from you.

What we tried to do from a compassionate perspective for our guests in those cases was cancel in advance. They didn't have to leave their homes, and we didn't put them in that state—

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I hear you loud and clear, and I thank you.

When an event like a snowstorm is expected, do you have a tactical crisis group to calm customers and give them the level of service they expect?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

Snow storms, like many things in our industry, are a constraint. We can have many constraints. Constraints are what drive disruption and drive unintended consequences in a safe and effective journey.

If you look at an operational control centre, it's that team. It's their 24-7 job to look ahead 12 or 24 hours, and out to the five-day window that we have with our network schedule. Their job is solely to try to see as far ahead as they can, take a look at constraints—whether they be fleet constraints or scheduling constraints—and provide an optimum experience for the travelling public and our guests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wilson.

Thank you, Ms. Vignola.

Our last line of questioning for this panel will come from Mr. Bachrach.

The floor is yours. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I think one of the most glaring stories to come out of the holiday season involved passengers on an Air Canada flight at YVR who were stuck on board and waiting to deplane for 11 hours. For those of us who fly, I can't imagine what that situation must have been like.

My question is for Mr. O'Connor from Air Canada. The CTA requires you to allow passengers to disembark—to deplane—after three hours and 45 minutes on the tarmac. Why was that not done?

[Kevin O'Connor]

I remember the day well. You're absolutely correct that there is the APPR tarmac rule that we follow, not just in Canada; there are other tarmac policies around the world. However, in the case of safety, if it is not safe to do or if it jeopardizes...damage or injury, we do not have to take the three hours and 45 minutes.

In this case, if you look at the number of aircraft that were in Vancouver that evening for all airlines, we could not get to a gate safely. The airport could not keep up with proper apron clearing, employees could not tow aircraft, and we could not disembark using air stairs out to an open surface and transport the passengers to the terminal. All of these were explored. All of these questions were asked.

Nobody wanted us to have customers on board for 11 hours or for any time of a lengthy delay. However, in a situation like that night's, when it is unsafe and we could jeopardize making things worse, we will always take the side of safety.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. O'Connor, I find it remarkable that there isn't some sort of contingency plan for getting passengers off an airplane in those circumstances. Obviously, the situation on board was stressful for passengers. I imagine people wanted to get off the airplane. I understand that communication with the passengers was really lacking. I am somewhat disturbed to hear that there was no plan to safely get those passengers off the plane using stairs or using some other situation.

Did you ask the airport for assistance in deplaning the passengers? At what point did that request go in to the airport?

[Kevin O'Connor]

We were in constant communication with our airport partner about clearing and about getting gates. There was no cutting through the gate gridlock. Nothing was leaving. The de-icing capabilities for aircraft weren't...departing. There is no question about it. The communication and the work in the background to try to get the customers off never stopped.

There are contingency plans. However, in the case of this type of snowfall and what happened in the Lower Mainland in Vancouver south.... Again, I will stress that until it's safe to move the aircraft and get customers off, we will not make a situation worse, and we will abide by the APPR. We will always, as I said, abide by safety first and foremost.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of our witnesses for appearing before the committee today and for being a part of this ongoing study.

That concludes this portion of the meeting. We will now suspend for approximately five minutes to change panels.

Mr. Berthold, would you like to speak?

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Chair, during my speaking turn, there were some lags because of interpretation. So I would like to make sure that the airlines get back to us as soon as possible with their dates for meeting with the minister, if that is possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

We take note of that, Mr. Berthold. Thank you.

This meeting will now suspend for approximately five minutes as we change over to our next panel of witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting back to order.

For the second half of today's meeting, we have, from Aéroports de Montréal, Monsieur Philippe Rainville, president, and Monsieur Martin Massé, vice-president; from the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, Ms. Deborah Flint, president and chief executive officer, by video conference; and from the Vancouver Airport Authority, Ms. Tamara Vrooman, president and chief executive officer, also by video conference.

Thank you in advance for your testimony today, and welcome to our committee hearing.

We will begin with opening remarks from Aéroports de Montréal.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Philippe Rainville, President and Chief Executive Officer, Aéroports de Montréal]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss travel delays and the treatment of air passengers during the recent holiday season.

I have been with Aéroports de Montréal for 15 years now, and have been the president and CEO since 2017. I am accompanied by our vice president of public affairs and sustainable development, Mr. Martin Massé.

As an airport authority, our role is to provide adequate infrastructure and, to the extent of the powers entrusted to us, to ensure quality service delivery to our passengers. In December, 31 airlines offered direct flights from Montreal to 125 destinations, including 93 international destinations.

During the most recent holiday season, a daily average of 450 flights landed and departed at Montreal's Pierre Elliott Trudeau International Airport, code YUL. With the exception of the major impact of the December 23 storm on airports in the northeast and United States Midwest and Canada, causing flight delays and cancellations, overall operations at YUL went smoothly throughout the holiday season, except for one of our partners, Sunwing. I'll come back to that.

Planning for the holiday season began in October with numerous coordination meetings, particularly to ensure that our partners had the necessary number of staff to deliver the promised service to passengers. I can therefore say that the ADM team and the federal agencies were ready to face a particularly busy holiday season. They were also prepared for an exceptional, and, according to some meteorologists, historic storm. Once again this year, YUL distinguished itself for the efficiency of its snow removal operations. Despite the weather cocktail that hit Quebec, YUL remained fully operational at all times thanks to the proven expertise of our people in the field.

We can understand that weather or factors beyond the control of carriers can impact their operations. However, what is unacceptable is the lack of communication with their passengers, who are also our passengers. They have a right to be informed, especially when there is a delay of more than three hours. We must avoid people coming to the airport to wait unnecessarily when they could be in the comfort of their own homes. We need to avoid having hundreds of passengers stuck in our airport waiting for their departure.

In such situations, it is our employees, those of ADM and those of the carriers, who are faced with the understandable frustration of passengers. Naturally, that they want factual answers. We must therefore improve our internal communications with the airlines, because it is important to better understand the situation and, above all, to better explain delays to passengers. For example, they need to be given the precise time of arrival of the aircraft that will take over, and informed when it is en route.

So, back to our more problematic carrier. Last week we contacted them and demanded a plan of action to ensure that resuming normal operations did not take so long. We are awaiting a response from them and hope to have corrective measures in place in time for the late February and March school break.

In closing, let me give you an overview of the level of service that Montreal passengers should expect in the coming months and years. For next summer, considerable efforts are being made by all to ensure that we avoid another summer like 2022. I believe we will succeed, despite a still very difficult labour situation.

What we are more concerned about is the long-term situation. YUL saw tremendous growth before the pandemic, and an equally strong end to 2022. It is clear that, despite significant technological input, our infrastructure will not have the capacity to undertake the next decade.

Many of our infrastructures are outdated, Mirabel remains a collective asset for which ADM bears the annual losses, and decarbonization is becoming a necessity. Our debt level is too high to prepare for the future. We are therefore counting on a financial relief valve in the near future and we believe that it can be provided within the current governance model of major Canadian airports.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Rainville.

Next, from the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, we have Ms. Flint.

Ms. Flint, the floor is yours. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

[Deborah Flint, President and Chief Executive Officer, Greater Toronto Airports Authority]

Thank you to the committee for this opportunity to appear.

We recognize that this very special holiday season was a difficult one for travellers. As airports, we are squarely focused on improving the traveller experience. This is what Canadians expect from us and as airports and across the industry we must deliver.

To put the magnitude of the operations at Pearson in perspective, on any given day during the holiday season from December 23 through to December 31, Pearson processed over 108,000 passengers per day. This took place during one of the most extreme weather events of the year.

We know that this summer was also very challenging, but very different than the circumstances over the holiday. With the summer restart, Pearson went from being one of the world's most shut down major hubs for the longest duration, to one of the busiest in the shortest amount of time.

For point of reference, back in December 2021, LAX was back to 55% of its prepandemic multi-tens of million passenger numbers, whereas Pearson was merely at 25%. Again our ramp-up was much steeper and much faster than many other complex, large-hub global airports.

Restarting and accelerating an air travel system has many moving parts, including airport facilities of billions of dollars of assets. Again, the summer restart challenges were very different than what was experienced during this Christmas. The airports and the system had modernized in a significant way and accelerated readiness in a significant way to move passengers more efficiently. Examples include technology tools that allow passengers to pre-book, and understand the airport environment and operating environment before they arrive at the airport.

Recognizing that this recovery period still had many vulnerabilities and anticipating that there would be weather challenges that typically come with winter, back in the spring and summer we elected to decrease the winter and holiday capacity of the airport by 17%. Reducing the number of aircraft that could take off and land from 90 to 75 movements per hour in the slot process was intended to reduce the risk of lineups and add resiliency to the airport operation.

We know that's not an easy decision. There are costs in terms of the economy, choice for Canadian travellers and business for the airlines, but we felt that was important.

This holiday, what happened? It was really a perfect storm of significant epic bad weather and an industry that was healing from the COVID extended shutdown. Labour is still very weak across the board of our partners. Cancellations due to weather have a compounding effect, leading to delays, backlogs and challenges with baggage. We know that airlines are in charge of taking bags on and off planes, and airports are in charge of the infrastructure.

At GTAA, we are transparent and recognize our part in providing the airport facilities, and when those facilities and issues with them do contribute to incidents. On December 24 and 25 specifically, the terminal 3 baggage-handling system was impacted by severe cold weather and an atypical wind direction, which resulted in an unusual freezing of sprinkler lines and conveyor belts. That glitch, as unfortunate as it was, impacted less than 10% of the overall bags that were in the system those two days, according to the preliminary reviews that we have conducted.

During those two days 28,000 inbound bags and 26,000 outbound bags went through terminal 3, which is where we had the mechanical issues. This is the equivalent of one bag per passenger who travelled during that period on a quantitative basis.

That said, we are absolutely committed to modernization, increasing the resiliency of our system for current conditions and current risks. We are well on our way to doing that from an operating perspective, and we are going to do that from an infrastructure and investment perspective as well.

That said, I will touch on a few things that we need and that we believe this hearing allows us to share. These will improve the travel experience for Canadians on a forward basis.

We must make more investments, not just at YYZ but across the airport infrastructure and airports in Canada. We ask the government to allow us to reinvest rent that we paid to them during 2020 and 2021, years where we took financial losses and we had very low levels of business. Airports across Canada took on $3.2 billion in debt to get through the pandemic and operate the essential infrastructure that we needed for health and for Canadians.

The second of three is that we need better information and real-time data from our partners, especially during our regular operations. We need to get more information in real time to help communicate to passengers and run a more stable, situationally aware airport operation.

We also need to recognize thoroughly that labour today is not what it was. This is outside of the airport industry but absolutely in the aviation industry as well. An equivalent level of staffing to 2019 does not reflect the high attrition rate that we see in our partners, or the training and learning curve that new employees have in a complicated—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Unfortunately, Ms. Flint, I'm going to have to cut you off there. If you could wrap it up, I could perhaps give you another 10 seconds.