House of Commons Hansard #24 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was national.

Topics

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4 p.m.

Liberal

Mary Clancy Liberal Halifax, NS

Madam Speaker, I must say I am truly delighted to see the hon. member's conversion on the road to Damascus because as he has kindly recalled my history on the opposition benches as an activist for women's rights, I too recall his original incarnation in this House as a member of a government, indeed as a member of a government that had full access to the Abella report which was tabled in this House in 1984 when the hon. member was part and parcel of that government.

I am sure that his desire for quick action has come since his, shall we say, change in circumstance. I will, however, say that I am a little disappointed at the hon. member's wish to debunk a committee that has not yet been struck. Certainly there is a committee for national defence, a standing committee of this House, and it has a particular mandate.

The joint committee that is being talked about in this resolution has a specific mandate that was promised, I might add, in the red book. We on this side of the House will always keep our promises. That is a promise we made. It is a promise we are going to keep.

What I want to see done and what I know will be done by this committee is that the systemic changes necessary to prevent further discrimination within the armed forces will be dealt with by this joint committee as part and parcel of its long-term mandate. To say that this work can be left to the committee on national defence is to be unrealistic. I know the hon. member would never be so with regard to the duties of the standing committee here in this House.

For example, the standing committee on defence will have to deal with estimates and with various and sundry other matters as they come up in the daily business relating to the minister of defence and his responsibilities.

This joint committee is to do a very special job within a very special period of time. As I said before, it is one that is absolutely necessary to the health and future of the Department of National Defence.

With regard to the need for action, I want to make perfectly clear that in my remarks I was certainly not calling for any more studies, no more studies. We know what the problems are. We know where they are. We know how they exist and we also know how to fix them.

What remains to be done now is for this committee to take as its mandate, which I am quite sure it will, this problem and work it in with the review and its recommendations for changes within the armed forces that the Department of National Defence will carry forward into the next century.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Reform

Allan Kerpan Reform Moose Jaw—Lake Centre, SK

Madam Speaker, today I would like to join some other members of this House in supporting the motion before us to strike a special joint committee of the House of Commons and the Senate to consider Canada's defence policy.

It is the conviction of many within our country and among our international neighbours that the last decade of this millennium presents an urgent and opportune moment to re-examine defence policy and national security.

The international, regional and internal factors compelling us as Canadians to review our policy are well articulated by people within and out of the defence industry. I am sure they will be thoroughly addressed by the joint committee we are proposing to strike today.

For my part, the issues of fiscal constraint, international political instability and the safety and adequate resourcing of troops we send abroad in service are priorities.

I wish to contribute to the current debate by emphasising the process of review. I want to encourage the proposed joint committee to consult carefully and widely with Canadians during this review process for two basic reasons.

First, the federal government has a unique and special role in educating Canadians about national defence and security. Defence is totally within the constitutional jurisdiction of the federal government. We must discharge our duties in this regard.

This review process is one opportunity to make younger and newer Canadians in particular aware of the role that our armed forces play and of the service they provide for us. I also hope that the joint committee will consider in its deliberations other ways and means for Canadians to be made fully aware of the importance of defence.

Developing educational and training programs will also ensure that we have a secure pool of future personnel for our armed forces service. While a consultative process will no doubt reveal various opinions and philosophies about the role of defence, the open and frank discussion should be of great educational value and should contribute to a national consensus for defence policy, one that would be sufficient to guide us into the next century.

The importance of achieving such a national consensus is the second reason for a broad and careful consultation process among Canadians. The best policy and legislation that governments can bring forward is that which commands lasting public support.

I believe that Canadians not only need to understand but that they want to understand defence policy. I believe that they will support policy that they understand and have had a hand in crafting.

It is with this in mind that I offer some constructive criticism of the timing of this review. It seems to me that the Liberal Party red book makes a number of policy decisions that may prove to be premature. These include increasing the priority of peacekeeping, establishing peacekeeping centres at surplus bases, forcing defence industry conversions, creating a peacekeeping brigade of volunteers and cutting the defence budget by $1.6 billion over four years.

Others have made this point as well. I as well feel that piecemeal change to defence policy before a thorough review is completed is a case of putting the cart before the horse. We cannot be sure of what our requirements will be, for example, in the area of base reorganization before the review process is completed. In other words, I would encourage the government to be as objective and open minded as possible when going through this review process.

The two crucial functions that the joint committee on Canada's defence policy can fulfil by developing a good process of consultation are education and consensus. The government must continue to find ways to accomplish these objectives.

I would also like to present an idea to this House which I have suggested to the minister of defence privately regarding the potential closure of Canadian forces bases. I recommended that the minister strike an ad hoc caucus of members who have CFBs in their ridings to participate fully in the base closure review process.

The benefits of such a process would be as follows. First, the minister may be provided with information from each base and surrounding community that he might not otherwise have had the benefit of receiving. This information, along with expert opinion, would be shared and debated openly in an ad hoc caucus resulting in the best analysis and decisions possible.

Second, it would allow the MP to more ably and effectively represent the views of his or her constituents. Third, it would increase the ownership level of the decision among parliamentarians and, therefore, among Canadians.

It is important for the government to have the respective MPs regardless of the future of any given base as allies rather than adversaries of the decision.

Having been fully informed of all the factors in the decision making process and having had the opportunity to contribute to the discussion on behalf of constituents, an MP would be a great help in communicating, gaining support for, consolidating and monitoring the outcomes of the decision.

In conclusion, a consultative, co-operative approach relating to the whole defence policy or to a subdepartment of it seems to be very much in line with the government's stated agenda for a more open and effective Parliament.

I am sure that we would all admit to some uncertainty about what the next century will bring in terms of internal, regional and international stability. I would argue, however, that the best way to face such an uncertain future is with careful planning. The future will surely come. The question is will we drive into it or will we drift into it?

Canadians will feel most secure with the future if we as leaders involve them, help to educate them, listen to them and together come to the best possible decisions.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:10 p.m.

Ottawa Centre Ontario

Liberal

Mac Harb LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister for International Trade

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Prime Minister and the Minister of National Defence and the government on this long overdue review of our national

defence policies, the way we provide services as well as the role of national defence. I would also like to congratulate the government on involving once and for all national defence staff, the armed forces and all those who have anything to do with national defence policy.

I believe it takes a lot of guts to undertake such an overall review. I am very happy and delighted to see this review taking place. In particular, unlike my colleague on the opposition side, I am encouraged by the fact that our role internationally will be enhanced through this review and also through the fact that some of the bases that we have here in Canada might be used as training bases for other forces around the world that might be interested in peacekeeping roles.

When it comes to the closure of bases, the hon. member is saying that MPs should be consulted in order for them to go back to their constituents and tell them about the issues so that they may bring back the views of their constituents. It goes without saying any MP who tells me that his or her constituents support the closure of a base is mistaken. No constituent would like to see a base in their neighbourhood or their surrounding being closed.

What we have to do is involve those affected by doing a review to ensure that whatever action the government takes would have a minimal or no affect on the surrounding community. The government is doing just that.

I am informed that this member in his home province of Saskatchewan undertook an initiative to have a look at one of the bases that is under consideration, I presume, and invited everybody but the member for the area in which this particular base is involved. I want to ask him why he did not practice what he preached. When he undertook this initiative why did he not involve all of the different partners rather than just picking and choosing the people he wanted to invite to that particular meeting or event?

Would the member not agree that it would really be wrong to prejudge the government decision on an initiative which has just now been launched? Would he not agree that it would be wiser to wait until such a time as the committee is struck and has had a chance to undertake a review? Does he not think that would be the best time and place in order to make any kind of presentation on behalf of his constituents? That would be the proper time for the member to tell the government and the minister the kind of things he would like to see the government do when it comes to national defence issues.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Reform

Allan Kerpan Reform Moose Jaw—Lake Centre, SK

Madam Speaker, I have two points. First of all, the base that is apparently in question in Saskatchewan happens to be the base which is in my home riding. Second, in any attempts or meetings that we have had as a Saskatchewan caucus we have invited everyone to be present and to take part in those.

The question that the hon. member raises is a good question and one that I talked about in my presentation. There can be no way at this point that we can go out and make piecemeal cuts or changes to any part of the defence without the full review process. We have to give the review process a chance to work.

I look at base closures as one perfect example. If we close or drastically change base x in province y today and pending the outcome of the review this fall we may say that base x in province y should have been kept. One cannot make a judgment as to what the long-term mission or the long-term goal of our defence should be without giving the process a chance to work.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ron MacDonald Liberal Dartmouth, NS

Madam Speaker, I was in the lobby but I was listening to the speech by the member. I fully understand the angst that he must feel knowing that with the base and with cuts pending he may have to deal with that in his riding. I certainly wish him well. I certainly hope that he does not have to deal with that at this point.

I have a fundamental question. During the election campaign the Reform Party in my riding-I have one of the largest military ridings in the country-would go around and say that it was its party's platform to eliminate the deficit in three years. However, at every all-candidates meeting on my side of the harbour and on the side of the harbour of my colleague from Halifax, whenever asked about defence policy we never received an answer.

The hon. member is now speaking for his constituents and I think that is the right thing to do. I want to know what the party's position is? The Reform Party platform said that in three years it would eliminate the deficit. With 37 cents of every discretionary dollar left in the budget going to defence, how would his party approach cutting the deficit to zero without going around and laying waste to most of the national defence infrastructure?

What I am saying is maybe he cannot have it both ways. I have never seen it like that. Maybe he can explain how it is done.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Reform

Allan Kerpan Reform Moose Jaw—Lake Centre, SK

Madam Speaker, first of all if anyone would take the time to look at our famous blue book they would see that we have not advocated any major cuts to defence from the $12 billion budget it is currently working under.

Having said that, we also believe that sooner or later we have to make infrastructure cuts. I am not opposed to cutting back or to making changes in defence. What I am saying in the whole gist of what I did say was that we have to get the process finished. I agree with the member's side of the House to have this review process but let us not make any changes until we have a look at it.

There may be a situation in which something very close to me is necessary to be cut. I would not like that. My constituents would not like that but that is part of the tough talk and the tough things that have to happen over the next few years.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

February 17th, 1994 / 4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Murray Calder Liberal Wellington—Grey—Dufferin—Simcoe, ON

Madam Speaker, I would like to compliment the hon. member on his speech.

I listened with a lot of interest because obviously something we are going to have to do is revise the role of the military for the 21st century. Things have changed. The cold war is over.

What I am interested in here and now is process of review. I would like to know what the hon. member's vision is of how this process of review is going to work, how this committee is going to be put together. Obviously one of the things we will be looking at is the cost part of it and the Reform is definitely looking at the cost of operating government.

I would like to know how the member is going to put together this committee.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Reform

Allan Kerpan Reform Moose Jaw—Lake Centre, SK

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for his question. It is a good question.

The vision I probably have for this review is that there would be a committee of members who have CFBs in their ridings. That would give all of us, and I have a CFB in my riding, a chance to sit down and make the case or tell the minister or tell the committee of people that this is what makes Moose Jaw wing 15 very good, very important.

I would talk about things like the low cost of operating this service in Saskatchewan, for instance. We would do this in conjunction with expert opinion, people who are in our defence industry at this time. There has to be some give and take so that we can look at what is best for the industry and for the country as a whole and not necessarily what is best for my riding or any particular riding.

Having said all that, I do know, as I mentioned before, that there are going to be some tough choices. If an MP were asked to be part of that committee he or she could go back to his or her riding and indicate the reasons that base x was changed or base y was closed.

I was part of that and it may make sense. We have to change it based on what we talked about.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

George Proud Liberal Hillsborough, PE

Madam Speaker, as with many aspects of Canadian life, the time has come for a long and hard look at our military policy, where we want it to go and how we want it to be an instrument of our national policy.

I would like to begin by saying how much I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this important debate and I believe it is important because it affects everyone in this country.

After all, Canadians, no matter what their age, their occupation, or where they live, have a stake in defence. For that reason I am especially pleased that the government has formally launched a defence review in the House of Commons. In so doing, the government is once again showing its commitment to consult with Canadians and take account of their opinions in determining the future of defence policy.

The opinions of concerned Canadians will be given voice here today, as they have been already, and they will no doubt influence the structure and the purpose of our military forces in the future.

As the minister noted in his speech earlier today, the aim of the review is to develop a new defence policy for Canada, one that reflects not only an uncertain environment abroad, but our needs here at home and the values we hold as Canadians.

The government hopes that the special joint committee on defence policy will hear the widest possible range of views on the future of Canadian defence.

Once the committee is established I expect that it will make plans to solicit the widest range of opinion on these issues. But before consultations begin we need an answer to a basic question: Is there a need for armed forces in the world today? Many people are asking this question.

In my view, the answer is yes. A glance at the front page of any major daily newspaper on practically any given day will enforce this view. Regrettably, the potential for conflict still persists, both between states and within states.

Armed forces are designed to play many roles in the world today. During the next few minutes I would like to discuss those roles in general and I will describe how the Canadian forces could help Canada meet its domestic and foreign policy objectives.

In doing so I will identify the specific roles that the Canadian forces carry out. They exist as security at home and they exist to contribute to international security and defence through multilateral operations abroad.

Finally, I will describe some of the activities undertaken by the Canadian forces. Those activities stand as solid proof of the asset our military represents due to its great ability to carry out many necessary tasks at home and abroad.

The most basic reason that any country fields armed forces is to protect its people, its territory and its political independence. To provide that protection, armed forces must guard against threats to sovereignty from without and answer threats to law and order from within whenever those threats outstrip the availability of civil authorities to respond.

Democratic governments prefer to avoid using the military to maintain public order but having the ability to do so provides a form of insurance against unacceptable risks.

The Canadian forces have been called upon to respond to threats to public order. We all recall the calm and disciplined performance with which the Canadian forces helped to diffuse a potentially explosive situation at Oka a few summers ago. Providing protection is an important military role, but it is not the sole raison d'ètre for the military.

Most armed forces are also capable of carrying out a variety of civil roles like search and rescue and disaster relief. We do not have to look beyond our own borders for examples of this.

The national roles played by the Canadian forces can be invaluable. One of the most important and most dramatic roles is search and rescue. It is a task that demands professionalism and determination, often under daunting conditions. The crews that fly search and rescue missions enjoy their triumphs such as when a Sea King helicopter lifted two stranded hunters from an island off Nova Scotia or plucked nine Honduran seamen from a sinking ship off the coast of Haiti.

Sometimes, of course, the end result can be far from rewarding, as we saw in the futile search for the missing crew of a cargo carrier lost in the Atlantic last month or the grim discovery last summer of a wrecked plane that ended a 12-day search of the Quebec wilderness. But the point is that our forces are there, they are trained, they are equipped and they are ready to meet Canada's search and rescue needs.

Our forces are also ready to respond to calls for disaster relief. Canadian soldiers, sailors and air crew have fought floods, battled forest fires and evacuated isolated communities standing in the way. For more than 50 years Canadian forces have also played a role in protecting our marine resources. Today Aurora and Arcturus surveillance aircraft conduct fisheries patrols over huge expanses of ocean, taking over where the Argus, the Tracker and the Lancaster left off.

The proficiency of the Canadian forces is the product of their training and equipment. The dedication of our service men and service women in carrying out those domestic roles attest to their status as a national asset. Based on the contribution they make to our national, domestic interests alone, there can be no doubt that the Canadian forces should continue to play a significant role in our collective future.

I have described the role of the armed forces within the nation state. Of course, armed forces also are maintained to respond to serious breaches of international security. Few of us would have to search our memories to think of these examples. The two world wars come to mind immediately, as does the Korean conflict and the most recent war in the Persian gulf.

When the cold war ended, we had hoped this type of threat would recede, but as Iraq's invasion of Kuwait illustrated so forcefully, aggression and conflict are not yet things of the past.

In addition to the many civil wars currently under way, tensions between nations are high and could easily lead to conflict. Think of the uneasy truce that exists between North and South Korea or the apprehension among the states bordering the civil war in the Balkans. Obviously there is no substitute for armed forces to respond to situations where diplomacy and negotiations have failed leading nations to resort to force.

Indeed even the authors of a document as hopeful as the United Nations charter acknowledge that these types of situations would continue to exist and in response they called upon states to maintain armed forces that can be used to defend the principles contained in the charter.

Canada's armed forces are no strangers to operations of this type. We were a major allied power during the second world war. We sent forces to Korea under UN command. In 1990 we were among the first countries to commit forces to the multinational coalition that operated in support of the United Nations and reversed Iraq's invasion of Kuwait.

Collective defence is another form of multilateral military co-operation in which security minded nations choose to participate. While sovereign states join organizations like the United Nations, helping to ensure international security on a global basis, collective defence arrangements are more limited and more focused. Essentially collective defence arrangements result when like-minded nations promise to co-operate to guarantee each other's defence.

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization or NATO is a classic example of that co-operation. Since it was founded in 1949 the alliance has grown to include 16 nations, all of which have pledged to pool resources for the common defence. NATO's primary purpose has been to prevent a major war through the deterrence of aggression and in this it has been very successful.

Considering that the cold war could easily have ended with a nuclear confrontation, we are very fortunate that NATO never had to use its military capabilities. That does not mean however that other than preventing an east-west conflict there were no benefits to collective defence through NATO. Far from it. At a basic level NATO reduced the expense and increased the efficiency of providing for defence within the Atlantic community

and from a political perspective NATO contributed greatly to the reconciliation of countries that only quite recently had been at war with each other.

NATO has also served as a meeting place where nations could discuss security issues and as a catalyst for military standardization and interoperability. In fact the familiarity NATO bred was put to very good use during the gulf war. Many of the allied countries were well acquainted with one another's equipment and procedures, factors that enhance the success of joint operations.

Canadians have been strong supporters of collective defence, not only through NATO but through a longstanding bilateral defence relationship with the United States. We have placed our armed forces at the service of NATO and NORAD and we have actively participated in shaping allied positions. I hope that Canada will continue to play this constructive role.

A third international role for the armed forces and for Canadian forces in particular is the involvement in peacekeeping operations. Most Canadians today are familiar with the contribution we are making to a concept first introduced in the years following World War II. Back then peacekeeping and observer missions were seen as something of an exotic innovation, but today they are widely accepted.

The review will provide Canadians with an excellent opportunity to reflect on the complex and evolving state of peacekeeping. The reality is that many current operations bear little resemblance to the original concept.

Within the last five years alone military forces have stepped into the breach to carry out an ever increasing and changing variety of tasks. Let us consider some of them for a moment.

Peacekeepers have helped to monitor elections in Africa and Central America. They have trained local populations to recognize and disarm land mines in Afghanistan. In Cambodia they helped provide administration on a nation-wide scale. In the war torn remnants of the former Yugoslavia they have ensured the delivery of humanitarian aid and created safe havens for refugees.

In only a few years peacekeeping tasks have expanded exponentially and the demand for qualified personnel to serve as peacekeepers has risen to new heights. No one is more aware of these developments than Canadians. In the past few years we have listened to reports about the activities of our forces in troubled spots around the world. We felt pride when Canadian forces air crews flew humanitarian aid to Sarajevo. We watched on television one hot summer day as a young Canadian soldier risked his life in the same city to save two women wounded by sniper fire. We have read about the difference our peacekeepers have made in Cambodia, in Central America and the Middle East.

There are many other worthy stories that have never, ever received wide circulation. Take for instance the military engineers in Bosnia who lowered the road through a mountain tunnel and straightened hairpin curves to improve a critical route used to deliver humanitarian aid. The Canadian soldiers in Somalia, we hear a lot about them but we did not hear about the ones who improved schools, reopened a hospital and got public utilities up and running in this area.

In essence, the defence review will chart a new direction for the Canadian forces as we enter the 21st century. That role has changed dramatically, even since the end of the cold war. Although sovereignty protection and collective defence remain important priorities, peacekeeping has become a focal point for the Canadian forces. We need to ask ourselves how best to strike a balance between these activities.

In conclusion, the end of the cold war has brought about dramatic reorderings and turbulence throughout much of the world. To meet the challenges of today and those we expect to encounter in the future we must field flexible, capable military forces.

If Canada seeks peace in a time of great transition and upheaval then it follows that we must retain armed forces capable of meeting the challenges to our defence and security at home and abroad.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Gaston Péloquin Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Madam Speaker, I listened very closely to the speech by my hon. colleague for Hillsborough and I agree with him that the Depatment of National Defence does many things very well and that it plays an important role.

However, if we examine each of the services in detail, it is clear that each one is important and has a role to play. My question is the following: Since we already have a national defence committee and given that we are asking the middle class and the poor to tighten their belts, what more can a special sixteen-member joint committee accomplish that existing committees cannot?

I would also like to ask my hon. colleague why the sixteen committee members should be authorized to travel from place to place within Canada and abroad to receive evidence?

Would it not be more logical to have witnesses come here to give evidence?

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

George Proud Liberal Hillsborough, PE

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his comments and his questions. I suppose I could use the saying six of one, half a dozen of another. I assume one of the reasons for the joint committee is to have the two Houses involved and the

16 people. It does not matter to me whether it is 11 or 16 or whatever the case may be. However it is going to be a joint committee of both Houses. There will be expertise on that joint committee from both Houses of Parliament.

We have talked over the years of the other place being an instrument that is not of much use to the country. One of the reasons that has come about is that the other place has not been used enough when we are starting out on such things as this investigation of our armed forces.

The people from the other place will contribute to this committee as well as we will contribute to it. So far as the 16 members going across the country is concerned, why not bring the people here? The hon. member will find in a lot of instances that people will be brought here. The most viable thing to do would be to bring people here.

We remember what happened when other committees went across the country in the last number of years. People were very concerned when the committee did not go to their areas. We have to be cognizant of that. We should visit as many of these areas as we find necessary. With that number of people, we can also split into different committees that can visit at different times in different areas of the country. That would help to speed up the process and not miss anybody in the overall scheme of things.

I do agree that in many instances it would be much more expedient, much more economical, to bring the people to Ottawa to listen to them here.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Len Hopkins Liberal Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Madam Speaker, the hon. member who has just spoken has broad experience in government. He has been in provincial government and he has been in Ottawa for a while.

Does he not feel it is very important to have a number of members like 16 on a committee including senators and to have breadth and depth from across the country on matters as important as the future defence policy of our large country, a country that has a great name around the world in peacekeeping and in doing more than our share during wartime in the past?

We will have many people with expertise in foreign affairs. We will have people with expertise in the military field. We will have other people with expertise in the industrial and training fields. The Canadian forces is the largest training school in Canada.

Does the hon. member not feel it is important to have breadth and depth from across Canada on the committee, to have the committee going to meet Canadians who cannot afford to come to Ottawa because this is a huge country, and to let Canadians have their say on such matters as defence policy and foreign policy? If we do not have that breadth and depth, will we not have an inward looking attitude instead of a broad, outward looking attitude at the world and nationally in our own country?

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

George Proud Liberal Hillsborough, PE

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his intervention and his questions. I think they are very relevant.

I spoke just a moment ago about this very thing. This is certainly one of the most important committees I have been on in my time here. It is going to take an in depth look at our defence policy as to where we are going into the next millennium. I believe we have to be committed to it. As I look at the make-up of the committee thus far I am very pleased. We have many good people on it from every party in the House. I think that spells good for the future. I am sure the people who will be chosen from the Senate will add their expertise to it at their own level.

As I said a moment ago, we have to go out to various parts of the country, and probably other places around the globe, to get the whole input of people who have a great interest in our country and in our military as to what we should have in upcoming years.

This is not something that will be a hodge-podge, band-aid situation. I think we have had some of that in the past. I believe the time has come. Canadians have told us that we have to change. Our economics tell us we have to change. I can see the make-up of this 16-member committee. It will split into subcommittees to go across the land and across the world to see what will be necessary for the next number of years. This is very important to the future of the country.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Unfortunately, there are only a couple of minutes left, Madam Speaker, and I think I could do a 20-minute speech because I am so frustrated from hearing what I just heard. I will try to be calm and precise and to ask the hon. member opposite for a precise answer.

On the first opposition day, we had a debate on a special committee to review every item of government spending and to save not millions but billions of dollars. The Liberals were against that committee to save money and to avoid duplication in the mandates of committees, as they said at the time. They are now offering us the same thing in a defence committee, not the same thing but a real duplication with enormous costs on reports we already have and answers we already know, with senators, probably to assess the relevance of their duties and to occupy them to a certain extent, since they have nothing to do, with 16 members, 14 on this committee. I am sorry but I would like some clarifications on the relevance of this committee, an approximation of costs, and I would like to know why you were opposed to a committee to save not millions but billions of dollars where now you are proposing to spend money.

In conclusion, I would suggest that you keep your red book introduction for the next campaign, if there is one, to the effect that voters no longer trust politicians because, with behaviour such as this, they will continue to distrust them.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

I can give the hon. member for Hillsborough about 30 seconds if he thinks he can give an answer in that time.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

George Proud Liberal Hillsborough, PE

Madam Speaker, this committee was struck by the House. The committee is in place, the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs to study the policy. It is a joint committee of both Houses.

The idea that we are going to spend more money on it is ridiculous. We are given a budget to go forward as a committee and that is what we are going to do. We are going to determine the future defence policy of the country for some time to come.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Laurent Lavigne Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Madam Speaker, today the government, in a somewhat hasty move, has introduced a motion calling for the establishment of a joint committee which would duplicate the work of the Standing Committee on National Defence. I do not want to expand on the substance of the motion at this time since several of my colleagues have argued against it and stressed that there is no justification whatsoever for setting up a joint committee which would cover the same ground as the Standing Committee on National Defence, increase costs and delay the implementation of a defence program. Therefore, not suprisingly, I join with my Bloc Quebecois colleagues in denouncing the striking of this joint committee, as proposed by the government in its motion.

Instead, I would rather spend my time focusing on the issue of industrial conversion. As we know, defence industries employ a considerable number of people and since the end of the cold war, these factories are getting fewer and fewer orders. They have already begun laying off workers. Therefore, steps must be taken quickly to convert military factories for civilian purposes.

What I do not understand is that the Liberal Party of Canada appears to be saying two different things. When it formed the Official Opposition, it said one thing, but now that it is in power, it seems to be singing an entirely different tune. To confirm my suspicions, I would like to read to you a short excerpt from a March 26, 1993 press release prepared for immediate publication by the office of the then Leader of the Opposition. Therefore the current Prime Minister was Leader of the Official Opposition at the time. He was in Quebec City where he announced to reporters a policy to convert the defence industry for civilian purposes. That announcement appeared on the following day's papers. Three opposition members were also making a similar announcement here in Ottawa at the same time and virtually all of the media in Canada covered the story.

Right now, the Liberal government has all the data it had back when it was in opposition. Why authorize another joint super-committee to conduct further studies and analyses and undertake more trips when we already have a committee, the Standing Committee on National Defence, to do the job? It makes no sense!

I would like to read part of the statement issued by the then Leader of the Opposition at the press conference held on March 26, 1993. "Today, Liberal leader Jean Chrétien, speaking in Quebec City, and three Liberal MPs, speaking in Ottawa, unveiled the defence conversion policy that would adopted by a Liberal government to bring our high-tech military industry into the post cold war era, while creating at the same time new economic development opportunities".

Here are the highlights of the announcement made in Quebec City by Mr. Chrétien and in Ottawa by Mr. Axworthy, the External Affairs critic, by Mr. Bill Rompkey, the Defence critic and by Mr. Jim Peterson, the Industry critic.

They proposed to expand the mandate of Industry, Science and Technology Canada's $200 million Defence Industry Productivity Program, known as DIPP, from developing defence technology to helping the industry convert and diversify into areas such as environmental technologies and high-tech peacekeeping technologies. They also proposed the establishment of an Economic Conversion Commission, with the participation of industry and labour, to facilitate and coordinate the process of conversion in the 100,000-job defence industry. Quite a few people work in the defence sector, 100,000 to be exact.

The Liberals urged the opposition and suggested to the Conservatives, then in office, to develop joint conversion arrangements with the United States, the market for 80 per cent of Canada's defence exports. Under the Clinton administration, the United States have embarked on a major defence conversion effort, thus reducing demand for Canadian-built defence products.

"The cold war is over, and Canada must adapt to a changing world", said Mr. Chrétien at that press conference. He went on to say that "the Tory government has no defence conversion policy and has been content to let the market dictate diversification".

Mr. Chrétien noted at that press conference that he had been calling for government action on defence conversion since March 1990. The Liberal leader called the international arms trade, which has shrunk by 25 per cent in the last few years, an industry of the past. He said, "We need to invest in the economic winners-and the job creators-of tomorrow". He wanted to invest and suggested to the then Conservative government to invest $5.8 billion in helicopters. He said that it was a cold war policy and that it was no way to develop Canada's high-tech potential. The Liberals believed instead in gearing this shrink-

ing industry towards more competitive military and civilian goods. Government can and must show leadership in shaping change. It was still Mr. Chrétien talking.

He then concluded by saying, "Canadians are entitled to a government that is prepared to lead, a government that has new ideas and new strategies and which helps them adapt to changing times. Our policy on defence conversion is a clear example of how a Liberal government will respond to the needs of Canadians in the 1990s".

When we look at, listen to and read what the Liberals were saying when they were the Official Opposition as opposed to what they are not doing now that they are in power, it is clear that they have two languages: one for the left side of their mouths and another for the right side.

The Bloc Quebecois's policy on conversion takes into account the importance of the armament industry and its structural impact on the economy. The Bloc Quebecois proposed during the last election campaign and fervently hopes that the federal government will take steps to facilitate the defence industry conversion process. Such a program is necessary and must be implemented as soon as possible.

The Bloc Quebecois doubts that the Liberal government will pursue a wide-ranging conversion policy. The EH-101 helicopter episode is revealing in this regard and clearly shows that the Liberal government does not intend to pursue a comprehensive strategy on this. It was a perfect opportunity for this government to show its true intentions in this area, but it preferred to single out the helicopter program, without a conversion program in return.

Then how can we launch such a program? Professors Bélanger, Fournier and Desbiens, of the defence industry conversion research group at the Université du Québec in Montreal, did some research and came to the conclusion that a very large number of defence workers live in Montreal, a region where they conducted a more in-depth study on the effects of non-conversion.

The Montreal region is the main defence industry centre in Quebec. More than 500 defence companies are located there and the total value of goods and equipment delivered amounts to a little over $2.1 billion. The region alone generates 63 per cent of defence economic activity in Quebec and accounts for 26 per cent of the Canadian market. The employment picture shows what is happening.

My time has expired, even though I would have liked to go on. I will continue at the next opportunity. I would just like to say that, on this whole issue of industry conversion, many jobs are at stake and there is an urgent need to intervene.

Defence PolicyGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Maheu)

Order! It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Ottawa-Vanier-Public Works; the hon. member for Louis-Hébert-Quebec City Airport; the hon. member for MacKenzie-Grain Transportation.

Are there questions or comments?

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5 p.m.

Bonavista—Trinity—Conception Newfoundland & Labrador

Liberal

Fred Mifflin LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs

Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest to what the hon. member for Beauharnois-Salaberry had to say. He actually said a lot that I agree with. He gave us some good figures on conversion.

This is a legitimate question, it is not posturing but I am not precisely sure whether he meant that the defence review should look at conversion or whether he felt we had precluded conversion from being considered. I can assure him that is not the case. Nothing is being left out of the review. Nothing is sacred and nothing is to be left untouched with respect to considerations.

Also, I gather more from the tone than the statement of what the hon. member said about the decision on the EH-101 helicopters, and of course I am making an oblique reference to the decision of the government to cancel the project, but my understanding was that his party was in favour of cancelling the project as well.

If the hon. member could clarify these two points I would be delighted.

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5 p.m.

Bloc

Laurent Lavigne Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to answer the question raised by my colleague. Of course, the Bloc Quebecois agreed 100 per cent with the cancellation of the helicopter contract, except that it was only half done. Not only should they have cancelled the helicopter contract but they also should have recovered the money that was to be invested in it and put it in an industrial conversion fund. I blame the government for not doing that part of the job. It was only half done.

This second part could have redirected all the money to be saved on the manufacture and purchase of the helicopters-over $5 billion. If this $5 or $6 billion had been invested in converting military companies, we could have stopped the hemorrhage that is going on right now.

I take the example of the Expro plant in my riding. It makes powder and shells. Not so long ago, the Expro plant had over a thousand workers, but with the end of the cold war, Expro's orders from the defence department dropped drastically. Now this plant has only 400 employees. I give you this example because I know that plant particularly well, since it is in my riding, but the same danger threatens some 60,000 workers in these military plants throughout Quebec, over 60,000 if we consider all of Canada.

The Liberals only did half the job when they cancelled the helicopter contract because they did not take the money that should have come back to them and invest it in industrial conversion.

There was a second part to the question, but I spent so much time on the first that I forgot the second. I do not know if my colleague-Oh yes! It has come back to me, Madam Speaker.

The whole issue of industrial conversion should probably be discussed by the defence committee and I hope that we will not have to discuss it as well in the joint committee that you want to set up, because that would further prolong the debate-there would be no end to it. Workers in our factories are now waiting for a conversion program before they are unemployed. That is the threat hanging over us.

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5 p.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear.

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5 p.m.

Bloc

Laurent Lavigne Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Workers in military plants who are in danger of losing their jobs tomorrow morning do not want to hear about setting up a joint committee that will report in six months or a year or two. The government should take a position before then. It is urgent. Enough discussion-let us act.

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5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Jean H. Leroux Bloc Shefford, QC

Madam Speaker, my remarks will deal with disparities between Quebec and other parts of Canada.

Quebec is one of the most disadvantaged areas in terms of economic benefits from National Defence contracts. Quebec's per capita share of defence spending is clearly below average. The following figures speak for themselves. An internal document from the Department of National Defence indicates that per capita spending for 1990-91 was $1,217 in Nova Scotia, this province ranking first, followed by New Brunswick in second place with $1,050, while Quebec ranked sixth, with a per capita share of defence spending of only $316.

Updated data for fiscal year 1992-93 indicate that the trends observed with regard to inequities experienced by Quebec in terms of economic distribution have worsened. The latest figures from National Defence, provided by the Minister of National Defence himself when he met with parliamentarians on February 10, confirm that Quebec's share of benefits has shrunk considerably. Actually, 16 per cent of the benefits go to Quebec, while Ontario gets 36 per cent, the Atlantic provinces, 16 per cent like Quebec, and Western provinces, 20 per cent.

Defence spending includes various expenditures. There are infrastructure expenditures, personnel expenditures, equipment expenditures as well as procurement and services expenditures. In terms of personnel expenditures alone, with 25.4 per cent of the population of Canada living on its territory, Quebec received only $773 million in benefits in 1990-91, as compared to $1,821 million for Ontario with 36.6 per cent of the population. Even Nova Scotia got more than Quebec, namely $793 million.

In 1992, the Department of National Defence conducted an in-house assessment of the extent to which Quebec was receiving its fair share of certain types of defence expenditures. This assessment demonstrated how unfairly Quebec was treated by the federal government with regard to defence spending as a percentage of Canada's GDP. Inequities were found under the following budget items: construction, research and development, operations and maintenance, Reserves and Cadets-to supply and equip the cadets-overall defence spending, personnel costs, Regular Force, civilian personnel. In all these areas, Quebec was clearly at a disadvantage.

As far as defence infrastructure in Canada is concerned, it should be pointed out that Quebec's share represents only 13 per cent of the value of the federal government's defence installations, as compared to 34 per cent for the Western provinces, 27 per cent for the Maritime provinces and 26 per cent for Ontario. To remedy the situation, the Canadian government and the Department of National Defence, under Marcel Masse, former Conservative Minister of National Defence, had developed a major infrastructure modernization program for Quebec, building drill halls here and these at great cost. Capital expenditures apparently exceeded $100 million.

These projects have raised Quebec's share of funds allocated to construction up to 19.2 per cent of the total amount of this budget item. However, they are now put in jeopardy in the short term by the upcoming budget, which will be tabled on February 22 as we all know. It is important that Quebec remain a priority because it is clearly disadvantaged with regard to government expenditures in those areas.

Technically, Quebec has four large military bases, which provide jobs for thousands of people: Valcartier, 6,085 employees; Montreal, 3,922; Saint-Jean, 2,031; and Bagotville, 1,782.

The Department of National Defence remains a major employer in Quebec with more than 13,820 employees listed on these four bases. Though the numbers are substantial, we must not forget that comparatively speaking, Quebec is not getting its

fair share, and we object to any cuts at the expense of Quebec's economy.

Another aspect of the regional economic impact of defence procurement contracts is the issue of interprovincial trade in the arms production sector in Canada.

John Treddenick, an economist with the Royal Military College in Kingston, looked into this subject and according to his study, Quebec performed well on direct contracts with the Department of National Defence but was getting less than its share of economic spin-offs, increasingly.

The potential for absorbing defence contracts into the economy in Quebec is not the same as in Ontario. The big winner in interprovincial sub-contracting is Ontario, because it is able to get major sub-contracts from projects managed in other provinces. In this respect, it occupies a unique position compared with all Canadian provinces, with a defence complex that far outweights the size of its direct contracts from the Department of National Defence.

However, Quebec's defence production is still substantial. The Quebec economy, and especially the economy of the Montreal area, is very dependent on National Defence contracts, as was pointed out repeatedly by Professor Yves Bélanger at the University of Quebec in Montreal, who is an expert on these issues. Consequently, an industrial conversion strategy must be prepared as soon as possible.

At this stage, we should not have a special debate on National Defence policy until the government has released its white paper. This position applies both to the issue of downsizing in military bases and training centres for peacekeepers. In fact, there are several reasons why the latter initiative should not be supported by the Bloc Quebecois.

First, it is unrealistic to believe that countries from all over the world would come to train in these centres. Who is going to pay the cost of bringing international troops and their equipment over here? The UN does not have the resources to pay for all that.

Second, it is a fact that Canadian peacekeepers are among the best trained in the world. Why bother setting up a training centre, when our troops already receive excellent training at existing bases.

Third, it would be dishonest and hypocritical to let the public think that creating training centres would not generate additional costs for the Canadian government. How can we tell people we are cutting back on defence spending, and at the same time keep military bases open to train peacekeepers? This does not make sense, it is misleading and the Bloc Quebec cannot support such proposals.

What is my party's position? We received a mandate from the people of Quebec to fight existing inequities and ensure that Quebec gets its fair share.

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5:15 p.m.

Bonavista—Trinity—Conception Newfoundland & Labrador

Liberal

Fred Mifflin LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs

Madam Speaker, I listened attentively to what my colleague had to say. Although I was not in the House all the time because I had to take a telephone call, I was listening in the lobby. I agree with a lot of things he had to say; he made some very good points.

Looking at the aspect of the defence policy review to which he made reference, I am assuming he would be interested in the conversion policy. One thing the defence policy review will more than likely look at is the subject of conversion because it is an ongoing matter at the end of the cold war. The U.K. is doing it. The United States is doing it. No matter what happens we have to look at that opinion. The policy review is an excellent time to do it with expert witnesses.

If the hon. member's party is so big on conversion surely it would not want to stand in the way of a policy review taking place purely because of the mechanism of the standing committee. That is almost a technicality in a way. Surely he would look at the bigger subject and have a policy review so that policies that would be beneficial to his constituency could be looked at in a very positive sense.

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5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Jean H. Leroux Bloc Shefford, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for his words. I think that we do not need to set up a joint committee to decide on conversion policy. I remember very well during the election seeing programs of different political parties which already dealt with the subject. As my fellow member of the Bloc Quebecois just said, I think that at some point the government will have to act and shoulder its responsibilities.

Now they seem to want to have us discuss all sorts of subjects in the name of a so-called democratization of the House, but one thing is certain: the government was elected to govern and not only to consult.

I think that at this stage it would be advisable for our duly elected government to get to work and make the decisions it must make so that Canada can finally have a policy which reflects the needs of the people.