Canada-China Relations Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[Robert Wright]

I agree completely with what John McCallum has said. The locally engaged staff make up a very important part of our embassy as well as our consulates around China. There is a hard line that we draw between access to information, access to important information, that is open to Canadians and closed to Chinese citizens. We recognize that fact, and even over the time I was there, that was very carefully maintained. I'm sure that's still the case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Now we will go to Mr. Harris for two and a half minutes, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. McCallum, as I said earlier, it's good to see you again.

When you were appointed from cabinet, I guess, to the position, there was a bit of surprise. It normally had been a post that was reserved for career diplomats, and you have a lot of political experience. Do you think your association with the actual government and the party in power was a factor in your work and what you were able to do? Was there some reason why that was an important consideration—

[John McCallum]

Well, look, I think you have to go back and realize—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

—in having you go to China, and was there a difference in the way you worked as a result of that?

[John McCallum]

I'm sorry if I interrupted you. It's nice to see you again.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

[John McCallum]

I think it's a delicate matter as to how many political versus diplomatic appointments you make. Recently in the U.S., it's gone the other way with the diplomatic appointments, so that's good for the diplomatic service.

In my case, I think there was a desire back then.... Remember that we said 2016 is not 2020, so the attitudes were different. We wanted to up our game with China, and it was thought that if we appointed a politician to be ambassador and put China on the same level as the United States, the U.K. and France, it would be well perceived by the Chinese and that would help Canada achieve its objectives. I think that was part of the thinking behind my appointment.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you for clarifying that.

I have a short question, Mr. McCallum. When Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig were seized several days after Meng Wanzhou was arrested in Vancouver, was there any doubt in your mind that there was a connection between those two?

[John McCallum]

No doubt. I'll put it this way. If Meng Wanzhou had not been arrested, I am very confident that the two Michaels would not have been arrested either.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Was that ever acknowledged by the Chinese authorities in your presence?

[John McCallum]

Not explicitly, but there were a few times when it came close to an implicit acknowledgement.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I think my time is up, Mr. Chair, as your fingers are getting a lot closer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

You have about three seconds left.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm trying to give indications to members of what time is left, so I appreciate members watching that and doing their best to stay within their time.

Now we will go to Mr. Chong for five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McCallum, it's good to see you again. I hope you're doing well.

For those of you who haven't read it, I recommend your book, Unequal Beginnings, about the Ontario wheat boom in the 19th century, which was based on your Ph.D. thesis. I remember reading it while I was procrastinating at the Robarts library at U of T many years ago.

Mr. Wright, it's good to see you as well.

My first question is for Mr. Wright. It was asked previously of Mr. McCallum.

Mr. Wright, a foreign agent registry has been proposed by former ambassadors David Mulroney and Guy Saint-Jacques. A foreign agent registry has been put in place in Australia. My question is, do you think a foreign agent registry is needed for Canada?

[Robert Wright]

It's not something I've thought about. I have to be honest with you.

It wasn't something that was discussed while I was serving in China, but I would have no reason not to support it. I don't think it's a bad idea. Just for the record, though, so I'm very clear, I have no clients who are Chinese or Canadian, so it wouldn't bother me. I could see some merit in doing so, particularly given the concerns that have been raised recently about the effect of certain Chinese representatives in Canada.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to move on to talk about Canadians who are wrongfully detained. According to Foreign Affairs, thousands of Canadians are imprisoned in more than 85 countries around the world—some 1,400 Canadians at last count. Foreign Affairs has also said it is aware of 123 Canadians who are detained in Chinese jails.

One thing that has confounded me is this. Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig are two of those Canadians detained, but there are also Canadians Hussein Jalil and Robert Schellenberg. To remind everyone, Hussein Jalil is a Canadian of Uighur origin who is still detained in China, and Robert Schellenberg is a Canadian who is now on death row in China.

Mr. Wright, why do you think the government makes the release of Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig the priority, but not other Canadians wrongfully detained, like Hussein Jalil? I am wondering if you can give us your perspective on that.

[Robert Wright]

I was in China when Hussein Jalil was detained, and he was detained by the Chinese as a Chinese citizen. In fact, he was travelling on a Canadian passport. As you probably know, we were never given consular access to Mr. Jalil, despite the fact that he is a Canadian citizen. That is an issue of some regret for me, that over the course of my time in China, we were never given access. As you know, he was subsequently sentenced and is still serving time in China.

I can't speak for recent years, but I don't think the government is giving greater attention to one detainee over another. My own sense is that the government—and I know this from my experience in Beijing, my experience as ambassador—pays close attention to all Canadians who are detained.

The nature of the way that the two Michaels were detained, as it would seem, in direct retaliation for the arrest of Madame Meng Wanzhou, is something that has clearly captured the attention of Canadians, and rightfully so. I can understand why Canadians feel particularly strongly about this, but that's not to say that Canadian officials in China and in Global Affairs Canada aren't paying a lot of attention to the other detainees as well.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Wright.

Mr. McCallum, you mentioned in your opening comments that beginning in 2018, the Liberal cabinet decided to make the release of the two Michaels a priority in the Canada-China bilateral relationship. Why are those two Canadians a priority and not a Canadian like Hussein Jalil? Is it because Hussein Jalil has a second citizenship, or is there another reason?

[John McCallum]

I remember that I made representations on behalf of Hussein Jalil in China, and I also spoke to people about him in Ottawa when I was ambassador. I visited Mr. Schellenberg when he was in jail, and spoke to his father. It's not as if we were not concerned about those people.

As Rob said, I think the fact that the two Michaels were seized in apparent retaliation for the Meng Wanzhou case has caught Canadians' imagination as something different and particularly unwelcome. It has had more high-level attention, for sure—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

[John McCallum]

—but it doesn't reduce the importance of these others.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but Mr. Chong's time is up.

It is now Mr. Dubourg's turn for five minutes.