Finance Committee on June 1st, 2021

Evidence of meeting #52 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clauses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Bill C-30

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Erin O'Brien Director General, Financial Services Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Justin Brown Acting Director General, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Gabriel Ngo Senior Advisor, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Julie Trepanier Director, Payments Policy, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Richard Bilodeau Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Kathleen Wrye Acting Director, Pensions Policy, Financial Crimes and Security Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Neil Mackinnon Senior Advisor, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Garima Dwivedi Director General, Indigenous Institutions and Governance Modernization, Resolution and Partnerships, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Leane Walsh Director, Fiscal Policy and Investment Readiness, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs

Suzanne Kennedy Acting Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Omar Rajabali Director General, Social Policy Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Eric Malara Director, Governance and Reporting, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

Samuel Millar Director General, Corporate Finance, Natural Resources and Environment, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance

Andre Arbour Acting Director General, Telecommunications and Internet Policy Branch, Department of Industry

Steve Watton Manager, Policy, Canada Small Business Financing Program, Department of Industry

Yannick Mondy Director, Trade and Tariff Policy, International Trade Policy Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance

Lorraine Pelot Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Barbara Moran Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information, Labour Program - Policy, Dispute Resolution and International Affairs Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development

David Charter Director, Workplace Information and Research Division, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development

Benoit Cadieux Director, Special Benefits, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Toby Hoffmann Acting Director and General Counsel, Judicial Affairs Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice

Anna Dekker Acting Senior Counsel, Judicial Affairs Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice

Stephen Scott Director General, Strategy and Performance, National Research Council of Canada

Frances McCormick Executive Director, Integrated Labour System, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development

Nina Damsbaek Director, Policy and Research, Canada Student Loans Program, Learning Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Clerk of the Committee Mr. Alexandre Roger

Christopher Duschenes Director General, Economic Policy Development, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indigenous Services

Kristen Underwood Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Kevin Wagdin Director, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

5:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Mr. Chair, I wanted to let Mr. Ste-Marie decide whether he wanted to challenge your ruling. However, it's very clear. We just passed another amendment, as you know, that requires the government to address certain aspects of Bill C-30 by preparing a report. Yet amendment BQ-5 proposes to address the requirements in this bill by inviting provincial representatives to a meeting, which is the same thing.

I strongly disagree with your interpretation, but I'll let Mr. Ste-Marie decide whether he wants to challenge your ruling.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I think he already said he wasn't, so I'm seeing the amendment as inadmissible, but I will be kind and give Mr. Ste-Marie the last word.

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Given the arguments made by my colleague, Mr. Julian, I'll ask for a vote on your ruling, if that's still possible.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I shouldn't have let that be discussed, should I? I could have kept the discussion out of it.

5:45 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Clerk, could you poll the members, please, on the chair's ruling that amendment BQ-5 is inadmissible based on parliamentary procedure and practice?

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 9; nays 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

The Chair's ruling is upheld, and the amendment is inadmissible.

We turn now to division 13, on Canada’s COVID-19 immunization plan.

Ms. Kennedy, go ahead, please, on clause 198.

(On clause 198)

5:45 p.m.

Acting Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Suzanne Kennedy

For this I would like to invite my colleague Omar Rajabali to speak.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Clerk, could Mr. Rajabali come in?

Mr. Rajabali, if you want to explain clause 198, you have the floor.

June 1st, 2021 / 5:45 p.m.

Omar Rajabali Director General, Social Policy Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Clause 198 establishes an appropriations authority authorizing payment of up to $1 billion out of the consolidated revenue fund by the Minister of Finance to the provinces and territories in support of Canada's COVID immunization plan. Payments are to be allocated to provinces and territories on a per capita basis. The specific amounts are in the bill on page 251.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Falk.

5:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

If the money is coming out of the consolidated revenue fund, how much money is in that fund?

5:50 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Omar Rajabali

I'm here only to talk about clause 198. I cannot actually speak to that.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

That might be a question to ask the minister tomorrow in the House.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

She actually never answers questions.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ted Falk Conservative Provencher, MB

I thought I would get an answer here at least.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Ms. Jansen.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I think I asked a question on this earlier, and you basically said the $1 billion was a number they just came up with and then divvied up per capita. My question, then, is whether we have any idea if this is sufficient at all to cover the cost that it's supposed to cover. Is it way too much? Do the provinces have any concept as to whether or not this is sufficient?

5:50 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Omar Rajabali

I'm not aware of any communication from the provinces in which they have articulated that this is sufficient or not.

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Fast.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

That was one of the three questions I had. It was exactly that. On what basis was $1 billion allocated for this? Obviously we don't have an answer to that.

Mr. Rajabali, you used the words “up to $1 billion”. Are you suggesting that the government still has discretion over how much it's going to dole out to each of the provinces? Is that discretion going to impact the actual per capita amounts that have been allocated to the provinces?

5:50 p.m.

Director General, Social Policy Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Omar Rajabali

I think I used improper terminology. The amounts are actually dictated in the legislation. I do not expect there would be any less money provided to the provinces and territories than what is indicated in the legislation. I'm sorry about that.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

It's no problem. I accept that explanation.

The rollout of the vaccines across Canada has been less than optimal. I mean, we could probably have done it better. I think there's—

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Fast, I am going to cut you off because we're dealing with the allocation of money here. We're not talking about the program itself, as to whether it was good, bad or indifferent.

5:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Well, I didn't know it had ever prevented us from having a frank discussion about—