Evidence of meeting #52 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clauses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Erin O'Brien  Director General, Financial Services Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Justin Brown  Acting Director General, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Gabriel Ngo  Senior Advisor, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Julie Trepanier  Director, Payments Policy, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Richard Bilodeau  Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Kathleen Wrye  Acting Director, Pensions Policy, Financial Crimes and Security Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Neil Mackinnon  Senior Advisor, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Garima Dwivedi  Director General, Indigenous Institutions and Governance Modernization, Resolution and Partnerships, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Leane Walsh  Director, Fiscal Policy and Investment Readiness, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Suzanne Kennedy  Acting Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Omar Rajabali  Director General, Social Policy Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Eric Malara  Director, Governance and Reporting, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Samuel Millar  Director General, Corporate Finance, Natural Resources and Environment, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance
Andre Arbour  Acting Director General, Telecommunications and Internet Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Steve Watton  Manager, Policy, Canada Small Business Financing Program, Department of Industry
Yannick Mondy  Director, Trade and Tariff Policy, International Trade Policy Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Lorraine Pelot  Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Barbara Moran  Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information, Labour Program - Policy, Dispute Resolution and International Affairs Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development
David Charter  Director, Workplace Information and Research Division, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Benoit Cadieux  Director, Special Benefits, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Toby Hoffmann  Acting Director and General Counsel, Judicial Affairs Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
Anna Dekker  Acting Senior Counsel, Judicial Affairs Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
Stephen Scott  Director General, Strategy and Performance, National Research Council of Canada
Frances McCormick  Executive Director, Integrated Labour System, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Nina Damsbaek  Director, Policy and Research, Canada Student Loans Program, Learning Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger
Christopher Duschenes  Director General, Economic Policy Development, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indigenous Services
Kristen Underwood  Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Kevin Wagdin  Director, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Are there any further questions?

(Clause 194 agreed to on division)

(On clause 195)

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Is there further explanation on clause 195, Ms. Kennedy?

5:35 p.m.

Acting Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Suzanne Kennedy

Yes. This clause would allow the Governor in Council to make regulations with respect to the information that must be prepared and submitted by the chief statistician of Canada for the purposes of fiscal stabilization payments.

There's one more subclause, which would also allow the Governor in Council to make regulations with respect to the details of the determination of personal and corporate income taxes, as was referred to in clause 194.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

All right.

(Clause 195 agreed to on division)

(On clause 196)

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Ms. Kennedy.

5:35 p.m.

Acting Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Suzanne Kennedy

This clause would specify that all technical changes—that is to say, all the changes with the exception of the higher cap—do not apply to claims for fiscal years 2019-20 and 2020-21. In other words, they would apply for fiscal years from 2021-22 and onward, but the higher cap would apply right away.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Fast.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

I have just a couple of questions.

I had understood that the Province of Alberta was asking for a cap of $170 per capita. Is that correct, or am I wrong?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Pat is shaking his head.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB

I think they were asking for the cap to be removed.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

That's correct; they wanted to have it removed completely, but as a fallback they were talking about a cap of $170, were they not?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Do you know, Ms. Kennedy?

5:35 p.m.

Acting Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Suzanne Kennedy

I know that they had asked to have it removed completely.

Perhaps I could clarify that this legislation would work out to a cap of about $170 per capita for the year 2020-21.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Okay. Maybe that's where the misunderstanding is.

Could you explain in a little more detail what those technical changes entail that will be applied from the year 2021-22?

5:40 p.m.

Acting Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Suzanne Kennedy

These are the other changes I mentioned from clause 194, such as having tax point transfers eligible for fiscal stabilization and changing the measure of personal and corporate income tax revenues so that it would be based on assessments completed in the fall of a calendar year rather than on the basis of the tax years to which those assessments apply.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you.

(Clause 196 agreed to on division)

(On clause 197)

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We will turn now to division 12, which deals with the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act (Additional Health Payments).

Following clause 197, we will go to proposed amendment BQ-5.

Go ahead, Ms. Kennedy.

5:40 p.m.

Acting Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Suzanne Kennedy

This clause amends the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act to specify that the Minister of Finance may make an additional cash payment equivalent to $4 billion to the provinces and territories through the Canada health transfer. It would be allocated on an equal per capita basis, and the clause sets out the exact amount for every province and territory.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

For anybody who wants to turn to the bill, those payments are set out on pages 250 and 251.

Are there questions on clause 197?

(Clause 197 agreed to on division)

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We're turning, then, to a proposed amendment for a new clause 197.1.

Mr. Ste-Marie, if you want to explain your amendment, we'll have the chair's ruling.

5:40 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When we look at the work of the parliamentary budget officer and the Conference Board, we realize that, despite the size of the current deficit in Ottawa, the public finances of the provinces are hardly sustainable. To restore balance to the situation, a major increase in funding for the health care system is required. This is the request of the Council of the Federation, so of all the provinces.

The Prime Minister said that he supported the idea, but wanted to take action only after the pandemic. Amendment BQ-5 seeks to ensure that work related to the meeting on the Canada health transfer, to which the Minister of Finance is inviting representatives of all the provinces no later than August 1, 2021, be started before that date.

We're experiencing a health crisis. The entire health care system is in crisis. We believe that better funding is urgently needed and must be provided now.

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

All right. I will give a ruling on this. I see that Mr. Julian wants in too.

The amendment requires the Minister of Finance to invite the representatives of all of the provinces to a meeting on the Canada health transfer no later than August 1, 2021. Since the scope of this division is related only to possible additional cash payments to the provinces, the amendment is inadmissible, as it goes beyond the scope of the bill, as described on page 772 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition. I am ruling the amendment out of order.

Mr. Julian and Mr. Ste-Marie, we'll have a quick discussion on this, and then we'll have to either accept my ruling or not.

June 1st, 2021 / 5:45 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Mr. Chair, I'll give the floor to Mr. Ste-Marie first, since it's his amendment. I can speak afterwards.

5:45 p.m.

Bloc

Gabriel Ste-Marie Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Chair, I just want to make a comment. I thought that you would rule the amendment in order because the government would have already called the election. I find the arguments surprising. However, at this point, I won't challenge your ruling.

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

It has to do with rules and procedure, Mr. Ste-Marie.

Mr. Julian.