Finance Committee on June 1st, 2021

Evidence of meeting #52 for Finance in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clauses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Bill C-30

MPs speaking

Wayne Easter
Pat Kelly
Tamara Jansen
Ted Falk
Ed Fast
Gabriel Ste-Marie
Julie Dzerowicz
Peter Julian
Peter Fragiskatos
Sean Fraser

Also speaking

Erin O'Brien  Director General, Financial Services Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Justin Brown  Acting Director General, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Gabriel Ngo  Senior Advisor, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Julie Trepanier  Director, Payments Policy, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Richard Bilodeau  Director General, Financial Institutions Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Kathleen Wrye  Acting Director, Pensions Policy, Financial Crimes and Security Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Neil Mackinnon  Senior Advisor, Financial Crimes Governance and Operations, Financial Systems Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Garima Dwivedi  Director General, Indigenous Institutions and Governance Modernization, Resolution and Partnerships, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Leane Walsh  Director, Fiscal Policy and Investment Readiness, Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs
Suzanne Kennedy  Acting Director General, Federal-Provincial Relations Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Omar Rajabali  Director General, Social Policy Division, Federal-Provincial Relations and Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Eric Malara  Director, Governance and Reporting, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
Samuel Millar  Director General, Corporate Finance, Natural Resources and Environment, Economic Development and Corporate Finance, Department of Finance
Andre Arbour  Acting Director General, Telecommunications and Internet Policy Branch, Department of Industry
Steve Watton  Manager, Policy, Canada Small Business Financing Program, Department of Industry
Yannick Mondy  Director, Trade and Tariff Policy, International Trade Policy Division, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Lorraine Pelot  Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Barbara Moran  Director General, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information, Labour Program - Policy, Dispute Resolution and International Affairs Directorate, Department of Employment and Social Development
David Charter  Director, Workplace Information and Research Division, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Benoit Cadieux  Director, Special Benefits, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Toby Hoffmann  Acting Director and General Counsel, Judicial Affairs Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
Anna Dekker  Acting Senior Counsel, Judicial Affairs Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
Stephen Scott  Director General, Strategy and Performance, National Research Council of Canada
Frances McCormick  Executive Director, Integrated Labour System, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Nina Damsbaek  Director, Policy and Research, Canada Student Loans Program, Learning Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger
Christopher Duschenes  Director General, Economic Policy Development, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indigenous Services
Kristen Underwood  Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Kevin Wagdin  Director, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

8:25 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

No. I think he answered the question.

8:25 p.m.

Director General, Economic Policy Development, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indigenous Services

Christopher Duschenes

Thank you very much.

(Clause 268 agreed to on division)

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll go to division 32. We'll start on it. We have Ms. Underwood in to explain. It is regarding the increase to old age security pension and payment.

There are no amendments on clauses 269 to 271. We have amendments after that, but that's likely as far as we'll get.

Ms. Underwood, do you want to explain clauses 269 to 271 if you could? I think we'll probably agree to see them as one.

(On clauses 269 to 271)

8:25 p.m.

Kristen Underwood Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Mr. Chair, I might ask that Kevin Wagdin, who is in the waiting room, help me if there are some more technical questions. Perhaps he can be invited in while I start.

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Okay.

Before you do, Mr. Clerk, can you check to see if it's okay if we go three minutes over? I don't want the thing to go dark when we're half done clause 271. We will adjourn after 271. Could you check and give me a wave?

Go ahead.

8:25 p.m.

Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Kristen Underwood

Clause 269 is designed to ensure that the $500 one-time payment that is being proposed for the OAS pensioners aged 75 and older would not be included as income for GIS purposes. The one-time payment would be considered taxable income under the Income Tax Act. That would normally count as income for GIS.

Exempting this payment from the definition of income will ensure that the one-time payment made in August, 2021, will be treated similar to OAS and will not reduce a person's GIS beginning in July 2022.

8:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

I see Mr. Fast and Mrs. Jansen.

Mr. Fast.

8:25 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Who made the decision to make the payment in August of this year?

8:25 p.m.

Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Kristen Underwood

It was the decision of the government to make the payment this August. It was put in place as a transitional measure before the permanent increase happens next July.

8:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Did someone in the political realm direct you to choose August as a date to make this payment?

8:30 p.m.

Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Kristen Underwood

It is the decision of the government.

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

You've been in cabinet, Ed. You know how that works.

8:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

I certainly do. I understand politics as well.

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Does that answer your question, Ed?

8:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC

Of course it does.

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mrs. Jansen.

8:30 p.m.

Conservative

Tamara Jansen Conservative Cloverdale—Langley City, BC

I'm just wondering. Why would we want to set up a two-tiered system like this? Why are we treating seniors as junior-seniors and senior-seniors?

Is this also a government decision? Was there some analysis put into this that it makes sense to split our seniors into a two-tier system?

8:30 p.m.

Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Kristen Underwood

As we mentioned before, the decision to make the payment for older seniors, for those 75 years of age and older, was because of the greater vulnerability of this population due to the fact that they're outliving their savings, have a higher risk of becoming widows and widowers, and are further away from time in the paid workforce. All of those circumstances put older seniors at higher risk and greater vulnerability.

8:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Mr. Julian.

8:30 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have two questions.

What percentage of seniors are between the ages of 65 and 75, and what percentage of those seniors 65 to 75 have income that is below the poverty line?

8:30 p.m.

Director General, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Kristen Underwood

I'm just going to check and see if Kevin Wagdin has been able to join as well.

8:30 p.m.

Kevin Wagdin Director, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Yes, I'm here, Kristen.

June 1st, 2021 / 8:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Go ahead, Kevin. Did you hear the question?

8:30 p.m.

Director, Seniors and Pensions Policy Secretariat, Income Security and Social Development Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Kevin Wagdin

If you could repeat it, that would be wonderful.

8:30 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Yes, it's to know the percentage of seniors who are aged 65 to 75 in Canada, and the percentage of seniors in that age group, 65 to 75, who have incomes at or below the poverty line.