Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2017

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

There's a four-year limit, yes. It's the Americanization of our system, and I think programming would further do that.

That's why I'm opposed to programming. I have not seen a good argument for introducing it here. I'm afraid that the processes we have here, without the amendment that we've proposed, will make programming a reality, because it will simplify the work of the government House leaders. They will no longer have competing interests of members who are wishing to debate an issue and raise issues in the House, and that's a real problem for me.

There are many pieces of legislation that I have read and taken the time to think about and have wanted to debate. I've taken the opportunity to do questions and answers, to rise and contribute. There are other pieces of legislation on which I have chosen not to participate in the debate, either because I didn't feel I had completely understood the piece of legislation in all of its granular detail or because I deferred to more experienced members, veteran members who had a better understanding of how the piece of legislation would impact the particular policy area we were dealing with. I made a choice.

Programming takes away the choice. It would basically make it possible for the House leadership of the political parties to run the show entirely. That's the major difference between us and the House of Representatives. They have an entirely different system. I'll speak more about that too, because I happen to have studied in the United States for a master's degree. I happen to have studied American government, including Congressional procedures. I want to speak on that and how it relates both to how we're proceeding forward with this study and why this amendment is so important to get right. I want to explain the practices of Congress, both the Senate side and the House of Representatives side.

I think it's compromise. Compromise has helped Parliament and parliamentarians move forward at times and achieve the goals that the opposition has and that the government caucus and government members, members of the executive, have. We've seen it because we've had unanimous consent motions in the House when, regardless of the Standing Orders of the House, we've proceeded with doing something in order to expedite something on behalf of the government. When we haven't found that compromise, then we've proceeded with the rules.

As I mentioned earlier, in human resources the rules are not a straitjacket, just as they are not here. By unanimous consent we can agree to suspend the rules temporarily. You will get there only if you compromise. Our House leadership in the past has been able to compromise. I think it speaks of the ability of our sides to compromise. I want to. I'm sure some members of the government caucus want to.

We will not always agree on policy. That's why we have different political parties. Political parties were, are, institutions themselves, but really all they are is a way for us to organize ourselves around our passions, around our ideas. We bring them here to the House to organize ourselves. We're still parliamentarians. I'm equal to every single one of you, and I hope you'll remember that you literally have the power to force through the vote. You have the power then to force through the vote in the House of Commons, but I would hope you would not do that. I would hope you would find an opportunity to compromise with us on this issue.

Mr. Simms is nodding his head, so I'm hoping I'm getting through. Maybe Mr. Genuis softened you up, and maybe today we'll get through.

[An hon. member]

Maybe.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I think that's a point worth remembering. The parties have compromised in the past on different issues. Maybe we all didn't get what we wanted.

I remember the debate on Bill C-14. I have very strict views on that Bill C-14 debate, on how it proceeded and how time allocation was used. I deeply disagreed with it, so I took every opportunity to debate. That is probably the issue I got the most emails and phone calls on.

I happen to live in a riding—I think the only riding in Canada—with two large mega-churches in it, with thousands of members there every single weekend. They're a faith-based community—there are different ones they belong to—and they were coming to me on a regular basis with very specific views. I think I'm one of only five backbench members of Parliament who proposed amendments at committee. When this process is done, if another piece of legislation like Bill C-14 comes down.... I don't know what you will decide by June 2, but it might be that in the next Parliament or in a future Parliament I won't be able to have that opportunity. I don't know. It's not clear to me. You don't build trust with a lack of clarity, and you also don't build compromise, because then we don't know what you actually want to achieve and we don't know where you want to go.

That's our issue here. This amendment, if you choose to pass it, will begin to build trust again. It will get us to the point where we can have some form of consensus. We can co-operate again. Then we can get to the moment of compromise.

Perhaps you won't get everything you want in terms of all the changes to the Standing Orders. Different members have different ideas about the changes to the Standing Orders. I told Mr. Genuis, to his shock, that there are ideas he has about how the Standing Orders orders should be changed that I disagree with. I have other considerations, especially around private members' business. I think there should be more of it. I think it's important for every member, when they're elected to Parliament, to get at least one chance—one chance—to have their motion or private member's bill heard and debated in the House.

Now, whether or not the debate gets to the final end is secondary to me, or at this point it is. I could be persuaded, but I think it should still come to at least a first vote or a first debate. I think that's really important for members of Parliament.

I drew the short straw. I probably will not have my private member's bill heard until much later in this Parliament. Perhaps I won't.

I see Mr. Chan pointing to himself. Do you have a worse number than I do, or a better one?

[Arnold Chan, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'm pretty bad.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I have 255.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'm sorry to hear that, both of you. I feel for you.

I've already tabled two private members' motions and I'm working on another private member's bill on rare diseases. I am personally interested in that, but when these changes are done, I don't know what will happen to that.

If you look at every single prior change—the McGrath report, the changes that were done in 1969, and other times when changes were considered—members talked about the role of parliamentarians as legislators in terms of raising their ability to legislate. It wasn't just about introducing legislation but also to amend government legislation, and now, with the advent of an increasingly autonomous—or independent, whichever term you want to use—Senate side, with these Senate bills coming over, to amend those and how that process will work.

I don't see enough discussion on it here. I see half a line, a fragment of a sentence, that speaks to the Senate public bills that are coming over. I think you could spend an entire study of this committee on amending the procedures of the House in order to deal with an increasing volume of Senate bills. They bump our private members' business. I think that is critical. That's a critical consideration. If they sit down and consistently want to do this, they could pass legislation every few weeks that would come over to our side for debate and for a vote. We don't really have the rules in place right now to deal with a very large volume. It would also begin to displace the will of the House of Commons, the ability of parliamentarians to propose private members' motions or private members' bills. I think that's really important to think about.

We have this system whereby you draw lots, and you have a number assigned to your private member's business. Then you begin working on the content of that bill, finding stakeholders who will support you, finding other members of your caucus who will support you, and then other caucuses who will support you. The trust, the consensus, the co-operation, the compromise—that's how it works.

I saw a rookie member do just that. Arnold Viersen, the member from Peace River—Westlock, did exactly that with motion M-47. He got members from the New Democratic Party and from the Liberal Party. He even got a Bloc MP to co-second his motion. It passed unanimously. Now it's at the Standing Committee on Health.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair, if I might. I've been waiting for an opportunity, and I think this might be the one.

This point has been raised before. You saw the media attention here, and we know how many people are following this live. It has a lot of attention. We have made this request before. The Conservatives and the NDP are unified. That's why I'm doing this, to try to keep things fluid.

I would once again, on behalf of the opposition members, request unanimous consent to allow a motion to go on the floor that would have us move to a room where these discussions can be televised. We know the interest. You saw the gaggle of reporters out there when we came in here. There's clearly an interest. It has so far been denied by the government, time after time, but we're going to continue to pursue it, as we are the issue itself, in terms of fairness.

Again, Chair, I would seek unanimous consent to allow a motion to be placed that would have us move to a room where the television cameras can be engaged and Canadians can follow this important discussion.

[An hon. member]

That's a great idea.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Graham said no.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Carry on, Mr. Kmiec.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I guess it's because he's not wearing the snappy tie he had on yesterday that he doesn't want to be televised.

I'll continue with two quick quotes. They're very short. Again, from a former member of this House who resigned during this Parliament, the member from Calgary Midnapore, who was again quoting Mr. Diefenbaker when he said, “when you come to parliament on your first day, you wonder how you ever got here.” I did just that. “After that you wonder how the other...members got [here].” I think many of us do that on a pretty consistent basis. We look across the aisle and we wonder how some of you got here—some, not all.

There are members I have listened to in debate, both in committee and then in the House of Commons, when I've actually put down my iPad, put down my pen, and I've taken the time to listen to them. Mr. Chan is one of them, on the BDS motion. We disagreed on it, but I really appreciated his comments. It was a different viewpoint than mine.

At committee I've had disagreements with Mr. Fragiskatos. We have severely disagreed over process and policy, but I've never not appreciated his contributions to debate, even when he's gone over time, because I appreciate the viewpoint and I think he has an opportunity to be heard.

I see Madam Jordan is here. We served together on the Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations. She knows I have gone on and on for hours, it feels like, when we've had witnesses at that committee to testify and explain to us why a particular regulation was so badly written that, in my eyes, it needed a rewrite, or why the public servants in a particular department—the Canadian Food Inspection Agency comes to mind—had not done the work the committee had directed them to do. For 25 years, whether under Liberal or Conservative governments, it did not matter. They simply were not following the direction of Parliament.

My worry is that without this amendment, this study will lead to the implementation of these few pages into whatever this will turn into, and there's simply not enough time to go into this. It's divided into themes, but each one of these themes could almost be its own separate study. Programming could be its own separate study, because it would have a profound impact on the type of work you are able to do in this House. Then how we deal with the Senate bills could be an entirely different study, as I mentioned before.

I think it's important to bear in mind that the rules we've inherited from our predecessors worked for them, and while tweaking should be done and we should amend the rules, it should only be done when we all unanimously agree at the committee level, so then you could recommend it to Parliament. Then when people ask if the committee agreed, they won't just say they agreed on a majority vote, which the government caucus has the power to do, but that they unanimously agreed, and all the people at this table will be there for the vote. If I'm so fortunate to be here as a substitute for a permanent member of this committee, I will then take that vote in the affirmative. I would like to have unanimous agreement at the committee. That's why this amendment is so important. We can only get there in this place.

I talked about the institution of Parliament as an accumulation of customs and traditions, but it's also the building we are in, literally. This committee room in the bowels of Parliament is as close as you can get, I think, without being in the chamber. It's one of the more prestigious-looking committee rooms.

The way the House of Commons is laid out and the way it's represented, the way the rows of chairs are assigned, where the Speaker sits, the Speaker's chair itself, the stained glass windows, all add to the veneration that we should all bear to the institution. When you walk into a hotel and it's well renovated, well presented, you'll have a different feeling about the place and you will treat it differently than you would others.

I've worked in heritage buildings, such as the Calgary Chamber of Commerce, which used to be in an Odd Fellows Temple in Calgary. The building was falling apart. You treated it accordingly, poorly. The chamber moved into a brand new renovated space in the Burns Building in downtown Calgary. Staff members then treated it differently. They also started to work differently, without the approval of their managers, which was a problem. I think how we treat institutions is also how we treat Parliament.

I think, Mr. Chair, you were the one who mentioned the semicircle concept during the debate on the standing orders on October 6. I know that's been used sometimes by constituents, and I've met individuals who think we should adopt a European model. That's not in reforming the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, but you could see a situation in the future where they would try to reform the way our seating is laid out into a semicircle to make it less confrontational. I think that starts from the wrong principle. I'm debating; this is deliberation. It's not confrontation.

We can have confrontation outside with the media present, which would not be edifying in any way. It would not help us in any way. It would not build trust or consensus. We would not be able to co-operate afterwards. I believe the idea of a semicircle is a terrible idea, including for committees.

I think the way we're laid out right now is just fine. I can look at all the government caucus members and discuss with them the issues of the day. I can see all their names too, which is very helpful, especially when you're a rookie new member and there are 337 names to remember. I assume you know your own, hopefully.

The reason we have it laid out in such a way goes back to the cathedral concept and Diefenbaker's great love of this place. Mr. Diefenbaker served almost 40 years in the House of Commons. He knew this building inside and out. His respect for the traditions and the customs of this place were beyond reproach. He loved Parliament. It was both a speaking crutch, as I mentioned before, and something he deeply believed in. We should have the same love for Parliament he had, and one way we can show our appreciation of this place is by not drastically changing or amending the Standing Orders of the House without seeking unanimous agreement. Even in terms of the layout we have, members have talked about the two sword lengths. I'm pretty sure that's apocryphal. I'm not sure that's actually true—

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It's sort of true in Britain.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It's sort of true in Britain, but they don't have the original Speaker's chair anymore, either.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Nor do we.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

We have that chair.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It's not the original.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It's not the original we have. That's true. It's a copy of Westminster's.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It also has a motor in it so it can go up and down.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

That could be something in the reform of the Standing Orders. You could have an institutional component they could add on.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That chair is not moving to the West Block, by the way.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It's not moving to West Block?

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

They can't get it through the door. Seriously, they can't get the Speaker's chair that goes up and down that was made for Jeanne Sauvé to go through the door, so they're going back to old one for the West Block.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

The point I wanted to make here was that Mr. Kenney, when he was the member for Calgary—Midnapore, mentioned this allusion. He called it an echo of history, just like our Standing Orders are an echo of history. He said that it was an original chapel where the monks would pray that the members met in before they moved to the Westminster Abbey chapel. They were in rows, and they would face each other.

When I was completing my studies at Oxford on an exchange, I went to some of the cathedrals in Oxford. I was surprised to see that unlike here in North America, the pews actually don't face the altar. They face in all types of directions. I was surprised by that. No matter what type of denomination of church you were in, it was pretty consistent. You had pews facing walls. You had pews facing pulpits. You had pews facing staircases, for some reason, and the entrance way. It was different.

They kept it that way because they respected not just the church and the institution it represented—a 2000-year-old institution, in the case of the Catholic Church—but also the fact that the place had accumulated a certain way of doing things. Their standing orders were that the layout was to be this way, so they left it that way. It's not to say that they didn't amend it a little bit. They moved a few things around as more and more people were using it. You could see that they started changing the way the pews were arranged, but the general principle was that they left it that way.

I would hope that whatever changes we make in the future to Parliament, we don't move to the semicircle, because we are not Europe. This is Canada. I think we should keep that echo of history. I think the Standing Orders of the House of Commons are part of that echo. Whenever we want to change them, we should change them by unanimous agreement, because in that way, that echo, that concept of speaking as one voice, we could continue together, having built consensus and then trust.

Many members have heard me say that I like Yiddish proverbs, and I've used a great many of them. I have one: He who is silent means something just the same. I know that very few members of the government caucus have spoken to this issue maybe as long as I or Mr. Genuis or Mr. Christopherson or others have done, but I've appreciated every time Mr. Simms has made a contribution, because he's tried to explain and maybe elucidate, make a point, about where we have maybe erred in our description or in our judgment of actions taken by the government.