Evidence of meeting #33 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was application.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Giokas  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Catherine Kane  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I call the meeting to order. This is meeting number 33 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Today is Tuesday, November 2, 2010.

You have before you the agenda for today. There are a number of items we're dealing with.

First of all, we're going to begin our review of Bill S-6, An Act to amend the Criminal Code and another Act, referring to the faint hope clause.

Second, we will move to consideration of Bill C-389, An Act to amend the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal Code (gender identity and gender expression).

You also have before you the steering report. We met earlier today, and the clerk has been so kind as to put together the report.

Those of you who were present, Mr. Comartin, Monsieur Ménard, and Mr. Murphy, I'm assuming the report reflects—

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

I move to adopt it.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

We have a motion to adopt the report. Any discussion?

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I haven't had a chance to finish reading it. Could I just have another minute?

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right. I'll just give you a minute.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

It's fine, Mr. Chair.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right. I'll put the question on the report.

(Motion agreed to)

The fourth report is adopted.

Now, back to Bill S-6. We have with us our Minister of Justice and Attorney General for Canada, the Honourable Rob Nicholson. Welcome back, Minister.

Accompanying him are senior officials from the Department of Justice. We again have Ms. Catherine Kane, director general and senior general counsel, as well as John Giokas, counsel. They're both from the criminal law policy section.

Minister, you know the drill. You have ten minutes to present on Bill S-6, and then we'll move to questions from our members.

3:30 p.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to have the opportunity once again to meet with the members of the committee to discuss legislation providing for serious time for the most serious crime.

I appeared before this committee just over a year ago to discuss these amendments. At that time they originated in the bill known as Bill C-36, but since then this Criminal Code package was re-introduced in virtually identical form in the other place as Bill S-6 in June 2010. It was passed by the Senate without amendment and is now before you for examination.

Let me begin by recapping the current state of the law with respect to murder. Section 745 of the Criminal Code provides that convictions of first- and second-degree murder carry mandatory terms of life imprisonment, with mandatory periods of parole ineligibility. For first-degree murder that period is 25 years. It's also 25 years for anyone convicted of second-degree murder who was previously convicted of either first- or second-degree murder under domestic law or an intentional killing under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act. For all other second-degree murders, an offender must serve a minimum of ten years in custody. However, a judge may increase this to a maximum of 25 years, in light of the offender's character, nature, or circumstances of the crime, and any jury recommendation.

The parole ineligibility period set by the judge is part of a sentence that is read out in open court. Given the serious nature of murder, I think Canadians would agree that a period of up to 25 years of custody prior to being able to apply for parole is reasonable. I would assert that the 25-year parole ineligibility could and should be longer, especially in the cases of multiple murderers. As you know, that is another issue that our government has addressed through Bill C-48, a piece of legislation you will be asked to consider very shortly.

The core of the issue before us today is the so-called faint hope clause and its related provisions. It allows a murderer to apply for early parole after serving only 15 years, despite what the Criminal Code stipulates in section 745 and despite whatever longer period of time a judge may have imposed. We find this unacceptable. We were elected on a promise to restrict the availability of faint hope for offenders who are already incarcerated and to eliminate it completely for future offenders. Bill S-6, the bill before you, keeps both of those promises.

I would like to concentrate for a moment on the context in which these proposed criminal amendments have arisen. I believe it's necessary to clarify exactly how and why this bill was drafted and what it sets out to achieve. Since the first applications began to come forward in the late 1980s, the faint hope regime has been a source of concern among Canadians. They are disturbed and confused by a process that seems to allow murderers to circumvent the sentence imposed on them in open court after a fair and public trial. They see it as an affront to truth in sentencing, and they argue that a life sentence of imprisonment ought to mean just that.

Many refer to the faint hope regime as the loophole for lifers that can undermine the protection of society, because the system affords leniency to murderers, whose crimes demand severe punishment. Even worse, and perhaps most importantly, victims have told me about the additional trauma inflicted on their families and loved ones. They live in constant dread that the killer who robbed them of their loved one may one day bring forward a faint hope application. This review process forces victims to relive the details of the horrible crimes they have suffered again and again.

We want to spare these victims the anguish of parole eligibility hearings. We believe the justice system must not put those rights of individuals ahead of those of victims and law-abiding Canadians. The measures proposed in Bill S-6 are in direct response to these concerns and aim to accomplish three goals.

First is to restore the truth in sentencing by ensuring the sentence pronounced on a convicted murderer in open court is the sentence that is served. Second is to keep those convicted of the most serious crimes in prison for lengthier periods of time commensurate with the gravity of their crimes. Third is to help ensure that the families and loved ones of murder victims are not themselves revictimized at the whim of a convicted murderer who decides to bring forward an application for early parole that forces them to relive the pain of their original loss.

These are reasonable and compassionate goals, and I hope committee members would keep them in mind as they examine Bill S-6, because Bill S-6 will bar everyone who commits murder in the future from applying for faint hope. Thus, all those who committed these offences after Bill S-6 comes into force will no longer be able to apply for a parole eligibility date earlier than that imposed by the judge at the time of sentencing.

As for those who presently have the right to apply for faint hope, Bill S-6 will tighten up the application procedure to screen out applications that are unlikely to succeed and to restrict when and how often an offender may apply. This tighter procedure will apply to those who commit offences prior to the coming into force date. This means that those who are currently serving a life sentence in prison, those who have been convicted of murder but have not yet been sentenced, and those charged with a murder that occurred prior to the coming into force date and who are convicted--all will be subject to this new, stricter procedure.

I would like to briefly describe how two of the three stages of the current procedure would change. At the first stage of the current process, an applicant must convince a judge in the province where the conviction occurred that there is “a reasonable prospect that the application will succeed”. The court describes this threshold as being “relatively low”.

Under Bill S-6, an applicant would have to prove that the application has a substantial likelihood of success. This significantly higher standard will screen out flawed applications at the outset. It would also impose new time limits. Currently, the minimum period an applicant has to wait to reapply to a judge is two years after the initial rejection. Under this bill, an applicant would have to wait at least five years. The change from two to five years will create more certainty for the families of victims about when a faint hope hearing will occur and limit the number of applications that can be made, thereby reducing the trauma these hearings inflict upon victims.

Presently, an offender can apply for faint hope at any point after serving 15 years. Bill S-6 would change this by establishing a 90-day application window. In short, the applicants will have to apply within three months of becoming eligible, failing which they must wait a further five years, and then they will have again three months to apply. This proposed change will spare victims' families and loved ones from living in dread, uncertain of when or if a convicted killer will revive their suffering by seeking early parole.

Someone who succeeds at the second stage of the application may then go directly to the parole board for early parole. Bill S-6 doesn't change that. Colleagues, let me be clear: Bill S-6 does not affect the normal parole application process. There is nothing in this bill that in any way denies convicted murderers the chance to rehabilitate themselves or to apply for parole in the normal course once the parole ineligibility period imposed at the time of sentencing has expired. The bill simply requires offenders to serve their full sentence for the reasons I have outlined.

As I've said many times before, this government is committed to restoring balance in Canada's criminal justice system by standing up for the interests of law-abiding citizens and ensuring that the families and loved ones and victims are not themselves made victims by the justice system.

Mr. Chair, this is a fair, balanced, and reasonable reform of a controversial area of the law, and I urge all members of this committee to support this bill and hasten its passage into law. Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you, Minister.

We'll move to questions. Ms. Jennings, I believe you're the first one. You have seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for your presentation today. I have a couple of questions to begin with. You'll excuse me that I'm taking a little bit of time.

My understanding is that unlike most inmates who are serving a sentence, if granted parole they remain subject to the conditions for the rest of their lives. Lifers are not entitled to statutory release. Is that correct?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I beg your pardon?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Is it correct that lifers are not entitled to statutory release under the current Criminal Code?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

They're not eligible until 25 years...or whatever the parole eligibility date.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

So they're not entitled to statutory release under the current provisions?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Exactly.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

The second thing is, under the current Criminal Code provisions regarding faint hope, an inmate who has been convicted of more than one murder, where at least one of the murders was committed after January 9, 1997, may not apply for a review of his or her parole ineligibility period. Is that correct?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

That is correct.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Another clarification or confirmation I'd like to know is once an application has been made to a judge using the faint hope clause, if the application is dismissed for a lack of reasonable prospect of success, the chief justice or the judge who has dismissed it may set a time for another application not earlier than two years after dismissal, or the judge may decide that an inmate is not entitled to make another application. Is that correct?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

That is correct.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Do you know if this has ever happened when a judge in a ruling or in dismissing an application under the faint hope clause has ruled this inmate may not have an opportunity or be eligible to apply again under the faint hope clause?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I don't know of any instances.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Is it possible? I understand the information may come long after we do clause-by-clause and it's back in the House for debate at report and third reading, but is it possible--

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I would be glad to check into that for you, Ms. Jennings.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Thank you.

Another question I have has to do with the issue of the delay.

Clearly, we'll be hearing from witnesses, but having reviewed some of the transcripts of the Senate committee, some of the witnesses talked about the delay of 90 days, in particular when it's the first application. If the bill is adopted, the provision you have for an application of 90 days after the coming into force of Bill S-6...it could be difficult for some inmates to meet the delay, and not through any dilatory activities on their part, but simply because in order to make the application, the individual has to make the application in the jurisdiction where the crime occurred, and that individual, that inmate, may be incarcerated three provinces away.

So would there be any openness on the part of the government to extend the delay in those kinds of circumstances, or at least allow a judge the discretion to hear grounds for extending a delay if an inmate is unable to meet the 90-day delay?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I hear the point you're trying to make. I guess I would say, if I were advising one of those individuals, they've got 15 years to get their act together, and they do have this three-month opening, which is an exception to the rule that they would serve the full 25 years. That's what I would encourage that individual to do. You've got many years to look forward to this opportunity and that three-month window.

Then at least give some comfort to the victims this individual has created, knowing that after those three months they don't have to worry about it for five years. I think it's a reasonable proposal and I want to see it stay the way it is.