Evidence of meeting #14 for Justice and Human Rights in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-9.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Breese  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Wells  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Ali  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I'm grateful to once again speak to Bill C-9, the combatting hate act, and specifically to Mr. Brock's subamendment. It is an excellent subamendment.

I believe I can state without controversy that all members of this committee want to take action to combat the rise in hate crimes. We all want to help make our communities safer places for residents to live, to work and to raise families. We all want to give our law enforcement officials and prosecutors the tools they need to keep Canadians safe. This is important.

Soft-on-crime Liberal policies have created chaos in communities across Canada. Police have reported that since 2015, hate crimes in Canada have increased by 258%. Extortions are up 330%. Anti-Semitic hate crimes alone are up 416%. Hate crimes against South Asians have risen by almost 380%. In 2014 alone, Canada saw almost 5,000 police-reported hate crimes—the highest number on record. In Toronto alone, hate crimes jumped by 19% in a single year, with assault-related hate crimes rising by 42%.

Addressing the issue of crime is incredibly important to my community of Brampton West, and it is my duty as a parliamentarian to try to find a solution to make my community safer. However, instead of taking action on our shared objectives and finding solutions to address the explosion of hate crimes in our communities, we are stuck debating the Liberal-Bloc backroom deal that directly assaults freedom of expression and religious freedom.

I want to draw the attention of members to two recent news stories about hate crimes in my community. The first is from October 16, when men assaulted a victim with a replica firearm after hurling racial slurs in Chinguacousy Park. The second is from November 15, when a 22-year-old man was charged after he struck a pedestrian with his car after yelling racially charged comments.

Both of these reported hate crimes have been committed since the start of this committee's study of Bill C-9. This is what I mean when I say this is an incredibly important issue in my community. I am upset that we are wasting our time on the Liberal-Bloc plan to strip Canadians of their charter rights.

For a party that brags about being the party of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Liberals clearly have not read the document. The very first fundamental freedom laid out in our charter under section 2(a) is freedom of conscience and religion, followed by freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression in section 2(b). Those fundamental rights are what Mr. Brock seeks to further enshrine through his subamendment.

Paragraphs 319(3)(b) and 319(3.1)(b) of the Criminal Code exist to protect those fundamental freedoms in the charter. This committee heard just that from Derek Ross of the Christian Legal Fellowship on October 30. When questioned by the Bloc about repealing those two paragraphs, Mr. Ross stated that they “have been pivotal in demonstrating to the courts that the legislation does strike the right balance and doesn't intrude too far on citizens' rights to freedom of opinion and expression.” He went on to add that “If [the good-faith] defence, or the other defences for truth, as examples, were removed, we would be concerned that could undermine the constitutionality of this regime and the careful balance that has been struck.”

To back up their intent to undermine Canadians' constitutional rights, the Liberals and Bloc rely on extreme or made-up scenarios about how the good-faith defence could be abused. The only issue with that argument is that there is no evidence to back it up.

In the 2023 case in Quebec that the Bloc cites, there were never charges brought, and even if there were, advocation for the genocide of Jews is most certainly not good faith. Our courts have been consistently interpreting paragraphs 319(3)(b) and (3.1)(b) very narrowly. Mr. Ross spoke to that effect, stating that the example the Bloc often cites would be “a misuse of both the defence and, frankly, of religion.” Our courts are aware of that fact as well.

The committee heard from the Canadian Constitution Foundation on November 6 that these sections have never been successfully invoked, and that their existence is “central to the court’s conclusion that the law is constitutional as it is.” As Mr. Ross told us, “The courts have been very clear that this defence cannot be used to cloak hateful expression with impunity—the language they use is “as a Trojan Horse to carry the intended message of hate”.

Removing provisions of the Criminal Code that are central to our courts' interpretation of our laws and Constitution would be, to use another metaphor from Greek mythology, like opening Pandora's box. We have no idea what kinds of horrors could be released on our communities if the Liberal-Bloc proposal is passed.

Our system of good-faith protection is working. We heard that from witness after witness during this study. What we also heard from witnesses during this study is that after 10 years of Liberal soft-on-crime policies, there are many things in our criminal justice system that are not working and need to be fixed. We could talk about bail reform. We on this side of the committee have tried numerous times to get started on our study of Bill C-14.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Go ahead, Ms. Lattanzio.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Once again, I will invoke relevance in terms of Bill C-14. We're on Bill C-9. I have tried, since this morning, to outline that the Conservatives are obstructing the final clause-by-clause study of Bill C-9, and because of that, we are not able to finish Bill C-9, nor are we even able to begin the study of Bill C-14. I think it's a bit rich to start invoking that we don't want to study Bill C-14.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

This is debate. This is not an appropriate point of order.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

The Conservatives have been clear, ever since Tuesday, that they do not want to study Bill C-14—it's obvious. That is why I brought forward motions seeking unanimous consent, Mr. Chair, to bring this bill to the House.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I understand your point. Thank you, Ms. Lattanzio.

Mr. Gill, I've been very generous in how broad people can go with their comments. Although some may not agree with that assessment, I think I'm being accurate when I say that. If you could try to keep the focus on the amendment and the bill we're dealing with, I would appreciate it.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Absolutely, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you, Mr. Gill.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

For quite a long time, I was reading about hate crimes and how they are impacting our communities and society. At the same time, violent repeat offenders are on bail, and Bill C-14.... I'm just going to get to the relevance before anybody.... It is their right to raise points of order, and I don't complain about that, but if they will allow me, they will see that I'm coming to my points. What I'm going to talk about is very important for us as lawmakers and for Canadians, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

I understand, Mr. Gill. I'm happy to give people lots of latitude. Let's just try to keep it close, that's all.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Thanks to Bill C-5 and Bill C-75, both by Liberal governments, our bail system is broken in Canada. Violent repeat offenders are back out on the streets.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Mr. Gill, I apologize, but we have another point of order.

Go ahead, Ms. Lattanzio.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Chair, once again we're talking about bail reform, and there's no relevance with regard to the subamendment on the table. If the member opposite wants to deal with Bill C-14, obviously we're not going to be able to get to Bill C-14 as long as they keep on obstructing—

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

This is the same point of order.

Patricia Lattanzio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

—the finalization of Bill C-9. If that's the case, that's why I moved this morning to seek unanimous consent—because we're never going to be able to get to Bill C-14 in this committee—to send Bill C-14 for third reading in the House.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Thank you.

Mr. Gill, could you bring it back to the bill at hand? I understand people's desires around this table. They've been made very clear time and time again, frankly, but if we can redirect the focus very quickly, we can avoid further points of order.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

If I may, on a point of order, I think it's entirely within the member's right to discuss the direction and priorities of this committee. I appreciate—

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

That's not a point of order. That's a point of debate, Mr. Baber. Thank you very much.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Roman Baber Conservative York Centre, ON

This is debate against Ms. Lattanzio's point of view.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Mr. Baber, you're getting into debate, which we're not going to do.

Mr. Gill, you have the floor.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Amarjeet Gill Conservative Brampton West, ON

Mr. Chair, I understand your point of view. As Mr. Baber said, I am coming to that, but I did not even finish a line, and the next point of order came in. They will see the relevance when I go into my next paragraph.

My focus is on having safe communities. I do not want to see any sort of crime, whether it's a hate crime or one done by violent repeat offenders. Whether it's Bill C-9 or Bill C-14, criminals should be out of the street. They should be where they belong, which is to say that I want to see them in jail, not get bail. Violent repeat offenders and hate crime offenders are out on the streets hours after being arrested for crimes.

This is a major issue in my community. This committee heard directly from the mayor of Brampton, Patrick Brown, as part of this study. I want to quote from his testimony to highlight the urgency of this issue to my constituents. Mayor Brown told committee members about Darian Henderson-Bellman, who lost her life to five shots from her former intimate partner. This individual was released on bail five times. It was a preventable tragedy. A violent repeat offender—

Wade Chang Liberal Burnaby Central, BC

I have a point of order on relevance.

The Chair Liberal James Maloney

Mr. Gill, you did promise us you would get back to it in your next paragraph.

If you want to cede the floor to Mr. Baber rather than take instructions from him, that's okay too.