Official Languages Committee on June 11th, 2018

[Katherine d'Entremont]

The reviser who revised the exam for us during our investigation found that that was what had happened. Complaints were filed with the commissioner's office to that effect. One might suppose that improvements were made because it took some time.

Mr. Wagg can tell you more about that, but the exam is taken on a computer, and the experience varies from person to person. We couldn't exactly reproduce the experience of the two individuals who had filed complaints with the commissioner's office. However, we found that the translation of the exam was not 100% accurate, although that wasn't the biggest problem.

The biggest problem was the absence of material in French for students wishing to prepare for the exam. Even if the exam was perfectly translated into French as of next week, the situation would still not be in compliance with the Official Languages Act of New Brunswick because students would not have had access to the same resources in English and French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

Please go ahead, Mr. Arseneault.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Ms. d'Entremont and Mr. Wagg, and thank you for accepting our invitation. We're fortunate to have your expertise. You've shed considerable light on our concerns. We've heard many things about this matter and heard from many witnesses on the subject.

I don't want to go into the details of your report. I understand the problem: it's, first, the fact that there has been manipulation, but that's less significant than the lack of material in French for students wishing to prepare for the exam.

I'm a bit like St. Thomas here. I refer you, more precisely, to the first question you asked in your investigation. In question 1, you ask this:

In what ways did the NANB ensure that the French version of the exam:

b. conformed...

d. was adapted to the terminology of the field in the New Brunswick context?

Here's why I'm asking you this question.

When I studied law, we compared identical fields of law in France and Canada. I'll never forget it. I read a text in French, and, to me, it was Chinese. And yet it concerned a similar situation. The terminology didn't take differences into account. A text may mean the same thing in a specific context in Paris, but the wording will be different if you come from French Canada.

Is it possible this aspect had an impact on the exam?

[Marc Wagg, Legal Counsel and Lead Investigator, Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages for New Brunswick]

From what I understood, many of the translators at the American translation company that was hired were Canadian. The person who did the revision for us was a translator specializing in the health field in New Brunswick. He said the quality of the translation was quite good.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I'm very reassured by that.

That leads me to my next question, which is much broader.

I'm looking over your three recommendations. The Nurses Association of New Brunswick can easily comply with the second and third ones. As for the first, I'm going to ask you a question in two parts, one in the context of New Brunswick and the other in the context of French-speaking Canada outside Quebec.

The first recommendation is drafted as follows:

"that the Association take the necessary actions so that requirements to enter the nursing profession in New Brunswick fully respect subsection 41.1(3)..."

In other words, you recommend that there be genuine equality between the two languages.

You say in your report that the biggest problem is the lack of preparatory material in French. In view of that fact, how could the association comply with your first recommendation when it has no control over what is published in English on the subject here and there around the globe?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

I think the association will have to find that the exam in question doesn't meet the requirements of the act because the resources available in the market are in English. Furthermore, as is the case of the exams of many other professions in New Brunswick, such as the bar exam, the exam is prepared in New Brunswick. The professional association controls access to available resources and endorses those resources. It was in adopting this exam, which, as we stated in the report, does not exist in a vacuum, that the association went wrong.

There is a full range of resources on the commercial market. They are mainly American resources, but I think it's out of the question to expect the New Brunswick association to be able to reproduce those resources in French.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

It's evolving; the situation, especially, is evolving, and material is published every six months or every year.

[Katherine d'Entremont]

Yes.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

French translation can't keep up in that case.

Isn't the purpose of your recommendation 1 to make the association choose between two solutions? The first would be to continue in that same way—hoping eventually for help from the federal and provincial governments—and to translate the foreign preparatory material while hoping to be able to do so by following developments in the field. The second would be to drop that exam and prepare one that is specific to New Brunswick.

Isn't the idea to force the association to make that difficult decision?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

It will have to make a decision.

That's why we didn't make a specific recommendation on the direction that should be taken. The New Brunswick act states that no person shall be placed at a disadvantage by reason of the choice of language. It's therefore up to the association to make the necessary decision. If it can't reproduce all the teaching material that's available on the market in English, it'll have to find the funds. I don't know whether there would be enough money to do that, regardless of which level of government it comes from. This isn't a magic and easy solution that can be implemented with a few thousand dollars.

Consequently, I think that, if you go by the Official Languages Act, the exam the association selects will have to—

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

—give everyone an equal chance.

[Katherine d'Entremont]

That's correct: everyone must be given an equal chance.

That's what the act states. So it will be up to the association to make the decisions and to see what it can do.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Yes, I'm interrupting you because I only have six minutes.

I know there is a lawsuit under way against the association. That's always the easy way to say we aren't talking to anyone anymore. However, has the association indicated any openness on this recommendation 1?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

Unfortunately, we haven't received any information from the association since our investigation report was released a month ago.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I have another question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

We have to change speakers.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

My colleague had a minute more than me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

She was entitled to an additional question.

Then go ahead.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Here's the last question.

Have any members of the association, or of the nursing teaching body, in New Brunswick who speak either official language reacted to your report? Have they notified you of any concerns whatever?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

We spoke with certain individuals after issuing the report, but not with association representatives.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much.

You have the floor, Mr. Choquette.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here today, Commissioner and Mr. Wagg. It's really a pleasure and an honour to have you here.

The issue of nurses and access to health care in French across Canada is extremely important. As Ms. Boucher has often said, when you're sick, you're sick in your own language. Ms. Boucher is with us, by the way, and she won't be annoyed if I quote her.

I know that several millions of dollars have been invested in this area. That's good. I think the federal government has invested nearly $90 million in French-language training under the last action plans in recent years.

If memory serves me, there is another $22 million for access to health care in French under the Minister of Canadian Heritage's current action plan. So the federal government is investing a lot of money in access to health care in French, but that ultimately begins with our students, who are learning, of course, so they can then provide service in French.

What happened? Why was there such a disruption when the previous test was switched out for the NCLEX-RN exam? What happened when the test was replaced with an American test?

[Katherine d'Entremont]

I can't answer that.

We conducted an investigation to determine whether New Brunswickers who speak French were being put at a disadvantage in their efforts to meet the requirements of their profession. We concluded that they were. Others could speak to you at greater length about everything that preceded and led up to the decision to choose the exam.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I ask the question, Commissioner, because one of the solutions proposed by some university chancellors is to go back to the Canadian exam rather than continue with the American test. That would help solve all the problems.

However, I wonder about that. Wouldn't there still be more resources in English than in French, even if we went back to a Canadian exam? If we let the market continue on its present path, wouldn't we still wind up, by default, with more exam preparation resources in English, as you mentioned, and wouldn't we still be trying to catch up in providing material in French? Would federal government support be necessary in securing access to those preparatory resources in French?