Official Languages Committee on May 7th, 2019

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all of you for being here this morning.

Mr. MacKinnon, in numerical order, No. 23 comes before No. 35, at least as far as I know. That's the case in the Constitution of Canada too and in the Official Languages Act.

If you want a suggestion, I can give you one right now. I think I'll even introduce a motion at a future committee meeting so that all parliamentarians can agree.

I'm going to propose a measure that will be consistent with what Mr. Samson, Ms. Fortier and Mr. Clarke said earlier.

Step 4 concerns aboriginal consultation. We have nothing against aboriginal people, of course, but, in step 3 or 4, or between steps 3 and 4, we should talk about consulting the OLMCs and the school boards. It's as essential to consult them as it is, under the Constitution, to consult aboriginal people.

In the Constitution Act, section 23, which concerns the official language minority communities, comes before section 35, regarding the rights of aboriginal peoples. The parliamentarians who drafted the act at the time, or who suggested it, initially talked about official language minority rights.

You talked about positive measures in your opening remarks. I think it would be a positive measure to send a clear and essential signal that minority francophones across the country are on the same level as aboriginal people, and that's also the case of the school boards, which have to fight within the disposal process described here. They have to fight to ensure their place, to have offices and lands available to them.

I'm asking you the question and I'm putting it to Mr. McBain as well. You're a politician like us. We all have big political ambitions, and we want to serve the entire community well. In actual fact, once we've drafted the laws, regulations and processes, we aren't the ones who implement them. It's Mr. McBain and his colleagues.

Do those people think the same way we do, or do they think that, in spite of our big ambitions, there may be more realistic things to do on the ground on a daily basis, which may be different from what we want done?

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I take it for granted that everyone shares this wish. The process of disposing of surplus lands is a more highly detailed and rigorous one than you might think at first glance.

As I told you, I'm not a constitutional expert. So I can't tell you what should take precedence from the standpoint of the law. That would be an interesting question to put to constitutional experts, jurists or your legal counsel.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

We don't want to do that to the detriment of one group or another. That's not the issue.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Absolutely. I would repeat, once again, that we are ready to hear and consider your suggestions on this matter. I know the government's listening very closely.

In this 50th anniversary year of the Official Languages Act, our government is constantly striving to improve, to take the necessary steps so that this country can envision another 50 years of bilingualism and anglophone and francophone presence, as the case may be, all across Canada.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. McBain, do you have anything to add?

You can answer in English.

[John McBain]

Thank you.

It's a very interesting question because in my mind you have Treasury Board that sets the policy, the departments that carry out the policy and then the transaction. In the case of Heather Street there was schedule G of the transaction of the sale between Public Works and Canada Lands that said the province has expressed an interest in our property for a school site, and that is a requirement placed on us from the custodian selling it to us that we explore that.

Frankly, I'm very proud of that result because we facilitated that there is a property on there, and we had to work with our nations' partners and the city to get that done.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

How long was the process from the beginning to—

[John McBain]

We acquired the property in 2014. In 2018, we had a memorandum in place for a lease. We don't control that process. That's my other point. The municipalities place a great—they control what happens with the property. At the same time that we were doing the CSF in Vancouver, we were developing Village des Riverains here in Ottawa. There are three school sites on that property, two of which are for minority languages, so that process worked very well without much noise while we were also doing the other process.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

What you're telling us is that whatever we think, it's not only the federal...that can be a problem somewhere in the process. It's mostly the municipality.

[John McBain]

When I appeared before a Senate committee, I had a senator ask me, “Why don't you sell them land tomorrow so they can expand their school?” I don't have that power because I would have to get it rezoned and the city won't allow me to rezone it without a master plan.

Several players are involved.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

At the meetings we had, people suggested it was mainly the federal government that was obstructing. You're telling us it's the municipality that obstructs most of the time.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

I don't think you can say obstruct when there've been 85 meetings.

Mr. McBain just explained it to you. I don't think I need to draw you a picture to describe urban planning in Vancouver.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I was the mayor of a small town of 5,000 inhabitants, and it was complicated.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

So imagine what it's like in one of the biggest and most expensive real estate markets in North America.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I believe I still have some speaking time, Mr. Chair. Mr. Samson had some time earlier.

Incidentally, I understand how people can get tinnitus when he speaks. He speaks so loudly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Mr. Généreux, you have a minute left. We're nearing the end of the first hour of the meeting.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

All right.

I know my ears are ringing. So I'm going to stay on topic, Mr. Déry.

According to one study, some 35% to 40% of Canadians have temporary or permanent tinnitus. I understand how interpreters can get it. You need only see what goes on in a room like this. This is a term I didn't know: compressor limiters. I don't know what they are, and I'm trying to understand how they work. The sound generated by a door as it opens or closes, or by a pencil that's dropped, is picked up by the devices, and the compressor limiter reduces it.

[Stéphan Déry]

I have a portable sound limiter here. Without going too much into the details, the compressor limiters we're looking for are installed on sound consoles. They reduce the sound to a certain number of decibels to prevent tinnitus. If you bang on the table with your fist, the sound produced will be blocked and the interpreters won't receive an acoustic shock.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

That's not currently the case.

[Stéphan Déry]

We've installed compressor limiters in Parliament's new rooms. As the parliamentary secretary said, parliamentary services will begin switching over all systems in June to equip the consoles with integrated compressor limiters. We're working with our clients to ensure integrated compressor limiters are installed across the federal government. In the meantime, we're providing our interpreters and freelances with small portable sound limiters like the one I have here. This device isn't of the same high quality as the integrated compressor limiters, but we had it tested at the University of Geneva so that these people would be protected, and it meets ISO standard requirements.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

Thank you very much,

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

That concludes the first part of the meeting.

Mr. MacKinnon, thank you for appearing before our committee. We will let you go now.

I will suspend the meeting for a few minutes, and then we will continue with the witnesses in the second hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Denis Paradis]

We will now resume the meeting.

We will have four-minute rounds for the second hour. Those four minutes will include the witnesses' response time so that all committee members can take part in the discussion. I'll try to set aside a little time at the end of the meeting for an in camera discussion of the committee's future business until the end of June.

Lucie Levesque has just joined us. She is Director General of the Real Property Services Branch at Public Services and Procurement Canada.

Welcome, Mrs. Levesque.

We will start immediately with you, Mrs. Boucher. You have four minutes.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for being here today.

My question will be for you, Mr. Mills.

You've testified before the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. We've spoken to you at length about the École Rose-des-vents in the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie-Britannique. You said at the time that you weren't really aware of the situation. I hope you know more about it now.

Can you tell us where the decision concerning the École Rose-des-vents stands? Have you carefully read the judgment of the Supreme Court of Canada in Association des parents de l’école Rose-des-vents v. Colombie-Britannique (Éducation)? Can you tell us about it, please?

[Michael Mills]

I'd like to begin to answer by explaining what happened at the Senate. In terms of the briefing material, when we look at disposals and projects, we get focused on the name of the property. In the preparation, we were focused on the Fairmont site, the Jericho site and the Heather Street site. We weren't as focused on that site. We were also focusing on the school board, as they are intervenient. When we were doing the preparation, I was focusing on the board and on the sites, and not on the name of the elementary school. That was the area of confusion. Certainly, in preparation for today I've gone back and looked at those decisions and looked through our process.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Can you explain that decision to us then?