Pay Equity Committee on May 2nd, 2016

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I would just say, Mr. Hynes, that if there's any way that the cost or the administrative burden can be articulated to us, that would be very helpful. Our mandate is to create a proactive pay equity model. I know from my own perspective that I want to be as helpful as possible and very considerate of our business community, our banking industry, and anybody in that field.

Do you have anything to add, Ms. Mandal?

[Marina Mandal]

I generally agree with Derrick's comments.

To add to them, you talked about your experience at a bank in terms of the road-mapping and the game plan and having it be a priority. It is for the banks. It's a priority as part of broader talent recruitment and management. The banks have offices or departments—they're named differently—of diversity and inclusion, so it's not just about women. It's about other designated groups under the Employment Equity Act.

This is for the banks a really important part. It's an industry that is very heavily knowledge based, and recruiting the top talent in a small labour market pool like Canada's is a priority. I just wanted to confirm that point. Beyond that, I don't think I had anything to add to what Derrick said.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I think the only thing for me to reiterate is that what is not measured is not going to be worked on. We need some data. If there has been great progress in equal work of equal value, please pass it along to us. If banks definitely have the road map, the accountability, the champions, the transparency, and the progress, I would also like some data on that. That's the only way that at least I could.... I know that we've measured progress of banks in various different things, and that's what I'd also be looking for.

If I have any time left, I'd like to leave it to Ms. Lapointe.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much.

I am very pleased to meet the witnesses with us today.

I have a question for Mr. Hynes.

You suggested a potential solution earlier, namely, that organizations that achieve equality between men and women should be rewarded. What did you have in mind? What would you suggest?

[Derrick Hynes]

That's a great question. As for what we were really envisioning there when we raised that point, we were thinking largely of small and medium-sized enterprises. At FETCO, the companies we represent are very large and certainly have the models, the tools, and the resourcing in place to do whatever is required in the event that the system changes. We're not going to cry poor and say that we can't accommodate, because clearly we can.

There are hundreds and maybe thousands of small and medium-sized enterprises across the federal system that also will have to accommodate this approach, so we're thinking of things such as tax credits, some sort of tax incentives as a reward, rather than using a stick all the time to punish those who don't actually follow the rules. Could there be tax credits, tax incentives, or award ceremonies and some way to raise the profile of this issue amongst those who may not have the resources to accommodate all the needs under the system?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hynes.

We have Mr. Albas for five minutes.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I do appreciate all witnesses being here. Unfortunately, because of time constraints, I won't be able to spend time with you all. First I am going to go to Mr. Hynes.

It seems to me that we heard earlier from StatsCan that there wasn't a silver bullet they could point to for the reason that the pay gap is slowly closing. They said there were gaps, through lack of data, etc., in their ability to understand what those reasons were vis-à-vis certain provinces that have certain legislative directives, the proactive versus the reactive style. To me, it doesn't seem to be.... Your comments were that the burden of proof should be on the government's side that there has been progress, but it can't be connected to a proactive regime. Do you think that is a reasonable statement?

[Derrick Hynes]

Yes, I think that is reasonable. The data show that nationally the gap is narrowing. As I stated earlier in my presentation, we honestly don't have our heads in the sand on this issue, because we do believe there is a problem. There is still a gap that needs to be addressed. We believe that there are a multitude of factors that might contribute to that gap and that we don't fully understand it.

While I recognize there are some who don't want to do more studies—I get that—we believe there are still questions that are unanswered that would help us better understand. To your point, yes, I agree. There is no clear indication, under whatever system, which is better than the other, because the trends seem to be headed in the same direction.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I also think it is unreasonable to say to people who are being regulated, “You tell us the cost of a program that we are going to implement on you.” I don't think that is a reasonable thing. Maybe I am not being completely fair here, but I think the burden of proof should be on those who wish to implement it and have the resources.

Now, from your presentation, Ms. Mandal, my understanding is that 280,000 Canadians are employed by you. Is that correct? That is almost a third of the 874,000 private sector employees who are federally regulated.

[Marina Mandal]

That sounds right.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

That's about right.

Mr. Hynes, how much of your membership...? How many employees would you say you represent?

[Derrick Hynes]

It's around 400,000 to 450,000. Between the two of us, we constitute a large portion of the federally regulated employees.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Okay. If you remember the prior testimony from Employment and Social Development Canada, there was talk about how different federally regulated industries are. It is unfortunate, and I blame myself, Madam Chair, because I didn't think to invite the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, because I am sure there are some smaller businesses that are not there. Are they...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Yes, they declined the invitation.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Oh, I am sorry to hear that, because it would be nice to hear from them.

I understand, Mr. Hynes, that you represent some larger companies. Ms. Mandal, you obviously represent some very large companies as well.

Ms. Mandal, there were some concerns from Ms. Dzerowicz in regard to the road map or how seriously banks are taking this issue. Notwithstanding her experience, because I think it is extremely important for members of Parliament to bring their relevant work experience here, would you be willing to ask one of your member banks to see if perhaps...? Obviously there would be proprietary concerns and so this would have to be done in camera, but if the committee was able to ask for some documentation just so we could see it, because my understanding of working....

I have met various bank managers over the years, and usually when a new policy comes in from the head office, it is accompanied by a binder yay thick with lots of paper in it and it's expected to be done by Friday, so there is a lot of work.

I think we should bear in mind some of the testimony here. We have two-thirds, if not more, of the private sector groups represented here, who are telling us that maybe we should look at improvements. There has been talk about a streamlined process or perhaps some tweaking of the current regime or new resources. You know, we all want to see disputes....

Are there any other suggestions that this committee could look at? I am not saying no to a proactive legislative approach, but I am saying that perhaps we need to do a little more research to get our burden of proof and say that this is the silver bullet.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Actually, I'm sorry, Mr. Albas, but that is your five minutes.

If the witnesses wanted to submit something in writing to answer that question, certainly that could be done in camera as well.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

We have just two minutes left and Ms. Lapointe has the floor.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My question is for Ms. Mandal, although Ms. Gladu did mention this briefly.

I was a bit surprised by something you said. Women make up 62% of the workforce in the banking sector, yet they hold just 24% of senior management positions. Moreover, if I understood you correctly, women hold just 42% of middle management positions.

You mentioned that you have a program for this. You also said you have endeavoured to identify talented women and to help them break through the proverbial glass ceiling. How do you explain such a large gap, given that the bulk of positions in the banking sector are held by women? How is it that there are so few women in senior management despite the talent recruitment programs?

We discussed this earlier, but I would like to hear your comments. What would you do to ensure that, should we revisit the issue in five years from now, women account for 50% of senior management positions?

[Marina Mandal]

I'll just clarify some of those numbers, but I think you have them right. It's 62% overall at the six largest banks. For middle management and professionals, it's 50.4% and 50.5%, and then 34.5% of all senior managers. If I understand the question correctly, it is why it is still not at parity, perhaps, for the senior management roles.

[Linda Lapointe, Liberal, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Women have long made up the bulk of the workforce in banks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Could you answer very quickly?

[Marina Mandal]

Obviously the number of administrative and business support positions in banks is huge. The number is much, much larger than the number of senior roles available for men or women.

Really, this is a focus for the banks. It is a focus for HR. I can read out a number of things the banks are doing, which I have in front of me, such as outreach programs and leadership training. Banks will map what they call the gender cliff, which is the point at which, while rising through an organization, women drop off. They pinpoint that point in time, at whatever position that is, and they specifically target that to see if they can improve opportunities for training or development for those women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

Thank you very much. We're already one minute over and we have the other panel waiting. I would encourage you, if you did have anything to add, to please send it to the clerk. You can send it in writing and the committee can review that.

I want to thank all of our panellists, including Ms. Ludgate from Saskatoon and those who are here in person. Thank you so much for coming.

We are going to suspend for just a few minutes while we change panels and bring in the next video conference. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anita Vandenbeld]

We're starting again.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for coming at this late hour, and thanks also to the committee members.

We have with us here Serena Fong, the vice-president of government affairs for Catalyst, and then by video conference from Saskatoon we have Beth Bilson, who has testified before. Welcome back to the committee, and thank you very much for coming back.

Also by video conference from Toronto, we have Janet Borowy, member and lawyer, Cavalluzzo Shilton McIntyre Cornish LLP.

I do believe that you have submitted a brief, Ms. Borowy. That brief is in translation, so the committee members haven't received it yet, but they will receive it as soon as it's translated.

Also, for Professor Bilson, if there's anything you testified on last time that you wanted to add, please feel free in your opening remarks to add that.

We will be giving each of you just seven minutes, because of the number of panellists.

We will start with Ms. Fong, for seven minutes.