Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2007

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You're trying to get too legal here, because Mr. Rogerson said, “We are aware of the calls that were made to Dave Gork and Barb George, who were consulted, and they were both advised of the order served whereby Frizzell was to be removed from his office.” There were telephone calls.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Yes, there was a document.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And you were aware of the circumstances.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I was aware that this gentleman was being removed that day, because Doug Lang called me. I did not know, sir--I did not know who signed off on that and who took that decision. The chair asked me not to speculate. I knew it would either have been Inspector Roy or Dave Gork, because obviously these were the two that were leading.... Well, Inspector Roy was leading the investigation, but Dave Gork was more or less managing RCMP members.

I did not know who gave that order, sir.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I think, Madam George, that your answers are more legal than fulsome. That's my opinion, and I'm going to stick to it.

Now, moving on, on the same issue, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj again asked you, “Was it Mr. Gork who made the decision to have Mr. Frizzell removed?” You responded, “I can speculate, if you wish me to speculate. I wasn't involved in this criminal investigation.”

I can appreciate that you weren't involved in the criminal investigation, but at no point in time did you divulge to this committee that you had telephone calls with Mr. Gork and others regarding the removal of Mr. Frizzell.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I think what is very important to do here, the reason I made my phone calls on Mr. Frizzell--who, by the way, is quite right when he says he was never approached by anybody regarding his interviewing techniques. Nobody ever did speak with him. I know that now.

I had a director general coming to me telling me that MPCC--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No, I don't want--

[D/Commr Barbara George]

No, sir, this is--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I just want an answer to my question, Ms. George.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

This is critical. There are two issues here. You're asking me if I knew who took the order or gave the order. I did not, sir.

The reason I didn't bring in--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

My question was this. I said you were aware because of phone calls, and you didn't volunteer that information to this committee. Did you--

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I was not aware who made the decision to remove Sergeant Frizzell.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You're missing my point, Ms. George. I said you were aware of the phone calls that you had regarding the decision to dismiss or remove Mr. Frizzell and the fact that he was going to be removed and the fact that he had been removed, and you did not volunteer that information to the committee. Am I correct?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

You didn't ask me, was I aware of whether he was going to go?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

No, no, but you're here to--

[D/Commr Barbara George]

No, sir,. I'm being very fair with you. I made those phone calls to address an HR issue, an HR issue of possible abuse or harassment of employees. I'm sure you understand the Treasury Board guidelines, which also rule the RCMP. I had to take action there.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Madam George, I have to interrupt. You're trying to obfuscate the issue.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I'm not, sir.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I asked you, why did you not volunteer the information that you had discussions with people who were involved in the decision to remove with Mr. Frizzell? Why did you not volunteer that information to this committee?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Sir, when I answered the question, I answered it honestly. You asked me who made the decision, and did I know. I did not know whether it was Assistant Commissioner Gork or--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You're missing my point. I said, why did you not volunteer the information that you had discussions with these people?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Because it had nothing to do with who took the decision.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay, let me move on.

Mr. Chairman, again, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj stated, “...and nobody seems to know who gave that order.” And you replied, Ms. George, “I never was and am not now in charge of the sergeant we are speaking about right now.”

A true statement, but a misleading statement. You were asked who gave the order, and you changed the subject entirely to state that you weren't in charge of the sergeant. Why did you make a misleading statement to the committee?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

It's not misleading to say I was not in charge of the sergeant, and I have repeated three times by now that I did not know which of the two gentlemen, either Inspector Roy or Assistant Commissioner Gork, would have given the order to have him removed.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I go back to the point that you're expected to give fulsome answers to the questions at this committee, and when you knew it was one of two people and you go off on a different tangent to avoid answering the question, to me, that's a misleading statement.

But let me go on, Mr. Chairman.