Evidence of meeting #50 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was george.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I guess it's the old saying, where you get by with a little help from your friends. A cousin gives a contract to a cousin to pass the contract off to another individual to write policies on contracting.
I'll conclude by saying somebody up here is not giving the full picture. I want to thank Mr. Macaulay and Mr. Frizzell for being here and answering some of these tough questions, because they brought a lot of light to this situation. That's why we need this independent investigator to do his work swiftly and, if necessary, to pursue an eventual public inquiry.
So thank you very much for being here.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
On a point of order, I would ask that you again remind the witnesses that they are required to give fulsome answers, to tell all that they know to questions, to a parliamentary committee.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Well, Mr. Williams, I think I have advised them of that already, and I think they all are aware of that and don't need to be advised again.
Colleagues, I understand that the bells will be ringing at 5:30. We can go five minutes into the bells. I have a couple of questions myself, but then we have seven more people on the list. I'll probably go three and a half minutes. I will use the gavel, and I apologize for that, but this is going to be very firm.
I have a question for you, Mr. Roy. In my understanding, there's a lot of talk about the situation of the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell from this investigation. You said you were shutting the thing down that day or the day after, but the evidence is that you instructed Mr. Gork to have him removed. Is that correct?
Ottawa Police Service (Retired), As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to address that issue.
The investigation took 15 months. When we got to the month of May, we had four interviews to do in order to complete the criminal part of the investigation. Throughout the investigation there were several consultations with the provincial crown attorney as to the direction in which we should be going and what we needed. At that point I was satisfied that we had the information that was required for the provincial crown attorney to address.
From that point on, investigators were allowed to return to their home unit, at different dates, once they were finished with the tasking that I had given to them. Mr. Frizzell stayed until the end of the investigation. Basically we were vacating the location the last week of June. We were finished with the report. The brief to the Crown had been fully given to the Crown. Meetings were ongoing between the Crown, myself, and Staff Sergeant Stephen St. Jacques. Also, we were in the process of writing the report. There were no interviews to be done. The investigation was basically over.
On June 20, I informed Superintendent Doug Lang, who was my liaison officer in the absence of Assistant Commissioner Gork when he was in Lyons, France, that it was time for Mike to go back. However, there were tasks to be done before he left, which was basically to package his notebooks and e-mails, which is what we were doing to vacate, basically.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
You've heard testimony from Ms. George that this gentleman was removed because of all the offensive behaviour, which I will not go into now. Do you agree with that, or do you disagree with it?
Ottawa Police Service (Retired), As an Individual
There were some conflicts during the course of the investigation that Staff Sergeant Frizzell was involved with. However, they were manageable, from my perspective, and it was reported to me that we could go along right to the end. He had a report to produce. He was a valuable member in the sense that he had a lot of information to offer, and I needed his input for the final report.
Once that was done, that was when I informed Superintendent Doug Lang, and I also informed Assistant Commissioner Gork. I spoke to him on the phone that week because he was returning to Ottawa from Lyons in order to attend a meeting the last week of June or the first week of July. Assistant Commissioner Gork was aware because I had briefed him on ongoing resource issues, which included comportment of RCMP members, because I did not have jurisdiction over the comportment of these officers.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
This suggestion that Staff Sergeant Frizzell was removed from this investigation based upon your instructions is not a correct suggestion?
Ottawa Police Service (Retired), As an Individual
I don't agree with the term “removed”. He was not removed. He was returned to his own unit once the criminal investigation was over.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
With respect to all this evidence we heard about the order being served on Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell having to deal with the way he was interviewing, etc., you, as the chief investigator of this very extensive file, do not agree with that evidence?
Ottawa Police Service (Retired), As an Individual
I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, but I have not seen that document that you're talking about.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
--that the evidence was clear that because of the way he was interviewing and the way he was conducting himself, the decision was made at the highest levels of the RCMP to have him taken off this investigation. There was the suggestion that this was done at your behest, and you're saying it wasn't at your behest.
Now, my secondary question is: the evidence that they used to serve the order--I know you haven't seen the order--you don't agree with?
Ottawa Police Service (Retired), As an Individual
No, I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, I just want to clarify this. It was done on my behalf. Certainly it was done on my behalf that he was to return to his own unit, and there were some situations over the course of the investigation, yes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Did you ask--and I know you didn't have jurisdiction over this gentleman--the senior officials, the people you had liaison with, that Staff Sergeant Frizzell be removed from this investigation because of his behaviour?
Ottawa Police Service (Retired), As an Individual
I asked that he be returned to his own unit once the investigation was over, the criminal investigation.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Of course. I guess we're not going to get to the bottom of this.
Again, colleagues, it's three minutes. These are going to be short snappers. I'd ask that you conduct yourself accordingly.
Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you have three minutes, and the gavel comes down.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Sure.
Mr. Roy, you used to work for the Ottawa Police. Did you ever work for or were you seconded to work for the RCMP?