Public Accounts Committee on April 25th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

At this point in time I'd like to call the meeting to order and to extend to everyone here a very warm welcome. Bienvenu à tous.

Before we start the meeting, I want to point out to the members of the committee and all public present that we're joined today by nine members of the Malawi Public Accounts Committee. We have their chair, Mr. Respicius Placid Dzanjalimodzi, and they're here on a tour of Canada and the United States dealing with governance and oversight. I'm going to be meeting with them tomorrow.

Mr. Dzanjalimodzi, perhaps I'll ask you and the members of the delegation from Malawi to stand up.

[Applause]

On behalf of this committee, I want to extend to you all a very warm welcome to Canada and a warm welcome to this meeting.

Today we're dealing with the continuation of our hearings under chapter 9, “Pension and Insurance Administration--Royal Canadian Mounted Police”, pursuant to the November 2006 Report of the Auditor General of Canada.

The witnesses before us today are Acting Commissioner Beverley Busson; the assistant commissioner, community, contract and aboriginal policing services, Mr. Darrell LaFosse; and as an individual, Garry Loeppky.

I want to welcome each and every one of you to the committee. We'll swear the witnesses in before we get the opening statements.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chairman, I have a motion I'd like to deal with. We'll do the swearing in first and then I'll deal--

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We'll do the swearing in and then we'll go to the motion, Mr. Williams.

[Garry Loeppky, As an Individual]

I, Gary James Loeppky, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Commissioner Beverley Busson, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Beverley Ann Busson, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Assistant Commissioner Darrell LaFosse, Assistant Commissioner, Community, Contract and Aboriginal Policing Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Darrell John LaFosse, do swear that evidence I shall give on the examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much.

Now, Mr. Williams, you want to table a motion?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think all of the members of this committee are quite frustrated because we can't really understand the allegations being made, the defence being made, and allegations of crimes committed and not committed and so on.

I thought, Mr. Chairman, to try to enlighten the committee, that we should ask Superintendent Macaulay and Staff Sergeant Frizzell to prepare a presentation for this committee, and we give them an hour to an hour and a half to make that presentation, so that the people who spent 14 or 16 months on this case, who feel that there are problems still to be resolved, can tell us what their concerns are. So we ask them to do that forthwith--so in the next couple of weeks or a week, whenever it's ready--and we set the time aside and we hear from them, and they can present to us what it is we're trying to discuss.

Therefore, I would move, Mr. Chairman, that this committee request Superintendent Macaulay and Staff Sergeant Frizzell to prepare a presentation for the committee, assisted by the RCMP officialdom, and to make this presentation to us at their earliest convenience.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'll take your motion on notice, Mr. Williams, and we'll put it on the agenda for Monday.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Is there unanimous consent to deal with it now?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Does Mr. Williams have unanimous consent to deal with the motion at present?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I take it, if Mr. Williams has unanimous consent to move the motion, Mr. Williams most likely has unanimous consent to have the motion approved. I will deal with it now because I assume everyone is in favour.

(Motion agreed to)

Ms. Sgro.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Speaking to that motion, because it's an important part of the work we're doing, can we arrange to have that as soon as possible? We could have that in full context as we hear the other witnesses, and if that requires--I hate to say it--an additional meeting in order for us to accomplish that, I think it would be important to do that.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

In response to that, I did actually say “as soon as possible”, and I would take that to mean that the chair, whenever he is ready, may actually call a special meeting for this to happen. But I'll leave that at the discretion of the chair and the steering committee. But yes, I think as soon as possible, without putting a specific date on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We will look after that request and deal with the individuals involved.

I should point out that we have this on the agenda for Monday, but then we're moving to hear from the Auditor General herself on her report, so there will be a week off.

Thank you very much, Mr. Williams, and thank you, Ms. Sgro.

Back to the witnesses, does anyone here have an opening statement they want to present?

Commissioner Busson.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Thank you and good afternoon.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm pleased to be here today to assist this committee in its ongoing effort to bring clarity to issues related to the administration of the RCMP pension and insurance plans.

I would like to start by expressing how disappointed I am that these events have unfolded in such a way that the RCMP now finds itself before this committee. I'm even more distressed when I see employees of this respected Canadian institution sitting side by side in this very public forum disputing what has occurred. This is not the way we do things in the RCMP. We're a family of more than 26,000 skilled professionals who resolve problems for Canadians every day. We've been doing this for 135 years.

What is occurring before this committee does not reflect the values and behaviour of the RCMP as a whole. It is a conflict between a number of people involved in the management of a very specific issue.

It's painfully obvious to even the most casual observer of these hearings that the standard of excellence for which the RCMP is renowned has not been met in this case. I find this unacceptable. It erodes the trust that is the cornerstone of the RCMP tradition.

I believe that hard-working men and women of the RCMP and all Canadians deserve to know the truth. I'm committed to you to getting to all the answers. This is critical if we are to maintain the respect and confidence of those we serve.

I want the members of this committee to know that I fully support your efforts to get to the truth. I am also committed to supporting Mr. David Brown in his independent ministerial inquiry.

In conjunction with the external reviews, we, the RCMP, have a responsibility to complete a thorough self-examination to identify the problems and find solutions to these issues if we are to move forward and ensure that this doesn't happen again. We owe this to our employees and we owe it to Canadians.

I've already set in motion a number of initiatives to take action on what has been identified. You are likely aware that both a code of conduct and a statutory investigation are ongoing. These are processes that stem from my concern surrounding some of the allegations raised before this committee.

I have met with individuals who testified before this committee to listen and hear their concerns. I've already taken action in dealing with some of them, and I will continue to do so until they're resolved.

I've also directed that an employee outreach initiative be developed to provide employees with a channel to report their past and present concerns or complaints to the office of the ethics adviser. Internal communication was disseminated to all employees to reinforce the mechanisms and rights available to RCMP employees concerning whistle-blowing and protection.

Finally, a team has been formed to support the ministerial inquiry conducted by Mr. Brown.

Mr. Chair, I would like to address the commitment that I made to the committee on February 21. I agreed to provide you with a written summary of the circumstances surrounding the alleged dismissal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell. The committee was kind enough to give me until Thursday, March 1, to fulfill this undertaking. I asked Barbara George, in her role as deputy commissioner, human resources, to develop a reply.

On March 1 I met with Barb George, who brought Department of Justice representatives with her, to review this reply. I felt that the draft reply did not provide the necessary detail. As a result, I instructed Deputy Commissioner George to prepare a more complete response immediately.

Later that same morning I was presented with another draft. It was still not to my satisfaction, as it had little or no factual information other than that Assistant Commissioner Gork would be called to appear before this committee to address his role in Frizzell's situation.

After reviewing a third draft, I confirmed with Deputy Commissioner George that the final version was a complete report of the facts to her knowledge. She informed me that it was complete, and I signed it.

Since that time a number of revelations were brought to my attention. They caused me to order a code of conduct investigation on March 29, which largely centres around the circumstances of Staff Sergeant Frizzell's removal and the letter to this committee that was prepared for my signature. I'm as anxious as you are to get to the bottom of this matter.

I know now that my letter of March 1 was not a full summary of the details surrounding the removal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell. This specific issue is now the subject of a code of conduct investigation that will establish conclusively what happened.

Let me be clear. I do take advice from the Department of Justice legal adviser. I'm accountable for my own decisions. I am in charge of the RCMP, not the Department of Justice.

I have committed to support Mr. Brown in his independent ministerial inquiry and have taken action in this regard. I look forward to his report to the Minister of Public Safety and the President of the Treasury Board. I expect this will address all matters relating to the administration of the pension and insurance plans, including the circumstances around the dismissal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell.

During the committee hearings on April 23, a motion was passed to request that the RCMP provide the committee with a detailed organizational chart covering the period of 1997 to 2007, along with a brief description of the responsibilities of the people involved, all the hierarchical links that bind them. Mr. Chair, I have received this request and have directed that these documents be prepared for delivery to the committee.

This organization, as can be appreciated, is constantly evolving. During the period of 1997 to 2007, the structure of the senior levels of the RCMP underwent numerous changes, both operationally and administratively. Organizational charts and reporting structures were modified with these changes. I'm told that it will take a week to prepare the proper documentation and we'll have that information available.

In the interest of helping the committee better understand how the RCMP is structured, I have brought with me today the current RCMP organizational chart and a chart that reflects the structure that was in place in 2003 when the pension and insurance issues came to light. I had hoped to have these translated for you today. However, it was not possible given the short time, but I will provide them to you as soon as possible in the translated form. I believe this latter document will provide the committee the information it needs to better understand the roles and responsibilities of those who have testified before this committee.

Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to table these documents, and I believe the clerk has them. I commit to delivering a full package to the committee as soon as possible.

In conclusion, I would like to say that I am proud of the job that our employees are doing every day across this country. As Canada's national police force, we enforce the law, prevent crime, and protect Canadians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you.

Before we start, Commissioner Busson, there's something I'm not clear on. The summary surrounding the dismissal of Staff Sergeant Frizzell that you were to prepare and provide the committee, has that been provided?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Yes, sir, it has, in a letter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

But that letter, I understand, was just a brief e-mail with the attached order.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

No. It was a letter, a full letter, signed by me, dated March 1, with an order attached. It was on my letterhead, and it was a two-page letter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I've seen the order, but I don't recall seeing the letter.

Can anyone else enlighten me?

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Maybe we can get copies to the members.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You're saying it was a two-page letter. I did see the order, and I distinctly--

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I have a copy of the letter with me.