Evidence of meeting #5 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kathleen Fox  Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Sylvain Alarie  Professional Engineer, As an Individual
Gilles Primeau  Professional Engineer, As an Individual
Natacha Van Themsche  Director, Air Investigations, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Jim Quick  President and Chief Executive Officer, Aerospace Industries Association of Canada
Jodi Diamant  Chief Engineer, Airworthiness & Certification, Pratt & Whitney Canada, As an Individual
David Curtis  President and Chief Executive Officer, Viking Air Limited, Longview Aviation Capital Corp.
Steven Bruce  Director, Design and Certification, Viking Air Limited, Longview Aviation Capital Corp.
Michael Deer  Airworthiness Specialist, Bell Textron Canada Limited
David Joseph Watson  Manager, Airworthiness and Air Safety, De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Limited, Longview Aviation Capital Corp.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Thank you, Mr. Primeau.

Ms. Fox, has your organization, the NTSB, been involved, either prior to the crashes or after the crashes, in any investigation regarding the certification of the 737 Max?

3:50 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

For clarity, not to confuse matters, we're the TSB of Canada—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Yes. I'm sorry.

3:50 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

—not to be confused with the NTSB, which has done—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I know what it is. I'm sorry.

3:50 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

No, we have not conducted any investigations ourselves into the Max. Prior to its grounding, we didn't have any occurrences involving the Max of a similar nature that would have compelled us to conduct an investigation at that time.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

So after the first incident, you weren't compelled to do a review of the certification of the 737 Max.

3:50 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

If we're talking about Lion Air, the Lion Air accident was under investigation, and like any other accident investigation agency, we were obviously very interested in the outcome.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Okay.

3:50 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

When the Ethiopian Airlines plane crashed, our role was very limited by the fact that the aircraft wasn't Canadian-built, Canadian-manufactured, Canadian-operated or Canadian-registered, so our role was the same as in the Iranian accident—limited status.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Thank you. I'll turn it over to my—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Doherty.

Mr. Baldinelli.

March 10th, 2020 / 3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you to the witnesses.

Ms. Fox, just as a follow-up on that, in terms of annex 13 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if an accident includes nationals from Canada among the deaths in a tragic incident, experts can be appointed by our country to investigate and look into these matters. Are you saying the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board was not involved in the Ethiopian Airlines incident?

3:55 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

Because in that particular accident the interest was due to the Canadian fatalities, our status under ICAO annex 13 was limited to “expert”. We immediately, following that accident, tried to become involved. We contacted the Ethiopian investigation agency and worked closely with central agencies in our own government and with diplomats, but unfortunately we were never able to.... We even sent an investigator to Paris to attend the download of the recorders, which we were never allowed to participate in because of our limited status under annex 13. But we tried.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Just to follow up, does the Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board routinely request that their foreign counterparts allow them to participate in investigations?

3:55 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

It depends upon the involvement. Certainly, if it is a Canadian-manufactured product, has a Canadian operator or a Canadian registration, or if the occurrence happens in Canada, then we have full rights, if not to lead the investigation, then to participate as an accredited representative.

In the case of the Ethiopian Airlines crash, we were unable to go beyond the “expert” status, notwithstanding that we tried through multiple attempts and multiple agencies. In the end, we were limited to receiving factual information released by the Ethiopian investigation agency on the progress of the investigation.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You also mentioned that you are not the regulator and that they look after the certification process, but that you would look to play a role on the safety and accident side in providing recommendations, should an accident occur. Has that happened with regard to the Max 8 aircraft at all?

3:55 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

Kathleen Fox

Again, other agencies.... For example, the National Transportation Safety Board in the U.S. has conducted an investigation and has made recommendations. We don't have any formal role to play, but we are following the developments very closely.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

The House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure in the U.S. just released a preliminary report. Was your office contacted to participate in it or to provide any input or comments on it?

3:55 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Vance Badawey

Thank you, Mr. Baldinelli.

Thank you, Ms. Fox.

Mr. El-Khoury.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Thank you for being here and for the insight you bring to our committee.

My question is for Mr. Alarie and Mr. Primeau: did you meet with the Minister of Transport, Marc Garneau, and Transport Canada to share your expertise and your point of view?

If your answer is yes, what were the main recommendations you made?

3:55 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Sylvain Alarie

As Mr. Primeau has indicated, he has begun to prepare a stand-alone brief. At some point, questions regarding flight controls and actuators arose and he called me. There was also talk of a review of his work. I participated in that activity with him. My role was to support Mr. Primeau. I think we're in complete agreement on the case. Then Mr. Primeau spoke to Minister Garneau.

I'll give him the floor.

3:55 p.m.

Professional Engineer, As an Individual

Gilles Primeau

I asked to meet with Minister Garneau. I don't remember the exact date. I was granted a 30-minute hearing and it was held on Friday, May 3, I believe. At the end of the 30 minutes, I apologized because I had not finished yet, but the minister said:

“Please continue.”

I stayed there for about 50 minutes, and Mr. Garneau asked me if I was willing to go and present what I had found so far to his experts at Transport Canada in Ottawa, which I agreed to do.

It took place on June 18. I made a presentation of about 65 slides, about 40 of which were active. It lasted two hours. It was very well explained to me that I couldn't get any feedback. That is normal. I want to fully respect the investigation process. However, I was still led to believe that I was on the right track in some respects.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Fayçal El-Khoury Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC

Was it understood that Transport Canada would follow up on your recommendations?