Evidence of meeting #9 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Finally, for this round, we go to Mr. Greaves.
Mr. Greaves, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, please.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon to the witnesses. Thank you so much for joining us today.
I'd like to clarify one point before going into questions in a different vein. The first question is for Mr. Laskowski. In your opening remarks, you made reference to the year 2011. I want to clarify the significance of that year for this crisis in your industry that you're referring to. That's the year in which the CRA made these changes, imposing a moratorium on the T4As for workers in your sector. Is that correct?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
That's correct.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Okay, so if we had to choose a date when this problem was set in motion, we might point to 2011 as when some of these decisions were implemented.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
That was the beginning of it.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Okay, and it has continued until the present day, very clearly, from your testimony. Thank you. In 2011, under the previous Conservative government, then, was when—
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
The moratorium was put in under that government.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Thank you.
I'd like to clarify for myself the prevalence of this problem of misclassification of drivers in your sector. This is for Ms. Splinter. The information that we were provided before this committee meeting indicated that as many as 63% of truckers in the province of Ontario may be misclassified. Is that correct, or approximately correct, to the best of your understanding?
Chief Executive Officer, Trucking Human Resources Canada
I can't quantify that. Our labour market information uses publicly available data—as an example, census data. Individuals we don't know might not be reporting their employment status properly. They could be reporting themselves as an employee but still be misclassified by their employer. For us, and the work that we do, it's a challenge.
To answer that question, I think investigation and enforcement by other federal and provincial authorities would be able to provide a more accurate or telling way to assess the number of drivers classified as Driver Inc.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Thank you for that.
Perhaps to the CTA, could you provide a general sense on the accuracy of that number, please?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
I'll turn it over to Jonathan.
Director, Policy and Public Affairs, Canadian Trucking Alliance
Yes, that's right.
There is an ESDC audit activity going on right now through the misclassification team. They're finding about a 62% non-compliance rate in Ontario, over 40% in Quebec and about 40% nationally.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
It's very high nationally, but Ontario does seem to be an outlier in terms of the severity of this problem. Is that correct?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
It's the mecca of trucking companies. It's the hub of it, but the answer is yes.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
In that sense, I wonder if you could speak briefly to what actions the Ontario government may have taken to try to address this significant problem within the Ontario trucking sector specifically. Has there been action taken under the Ontario labour code or has the Ford government been responsive to your group's or others' efforts on this?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
From a labour standpoint, the answer is yes. They used to do random audits in Ontario. Now they do focused audits, and they are around coverage of WSIB. They stopped random audits because they're finding fudged gross compliance.
Jonathan, do you want to provide some of the work there?
Director, Policy and Public Affairs, Canadian Trucking Alliance
Instead of randomly auditing companies in the sector, they started focusing their efforts on looking for misclassification. Since they've begun, they've found hundreds and hundreds of companies guilty of misclassification, and tens of millions of dollars in premiums have been recovered, so it's quite a successful enforcement action on misclassification.
Liberal
Will Greaves Liberal Victoria, BC
Well, then, I guess my question for all of the witnesses, or anybody who would care to answer, would be as follows: In light of the scale of the misclassification problem you have identified across many provinces, including Ontario, and some of the issues that have been raised around training, certification and so forth, is it the recommendation of the witnesses that the trucking sector in Canada would be best served if those responsibilities for regulation, oversight and safety were a federal responsibility, not a provincial responsibility?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
Boy, you're opening a can of worms on that one.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Trucking Alliance
The reality is that the federal government controls interprovincial trade—any truck that crosses the provinces. It has deferred the responsibility of the enforcement of those regulations to the provinces through a series of codes, which are standardized.
Could the federal government do a better job of providing more accurate information with regard to consistency across the industry? Yes. Could it act as a better way to coordinate harmonization of safety regulations? Yes. There is an expanded role of that. With regard to the provinces, and how they do it, yes, there does not need to be an evolutionary process with regard to safety enforcement but a revolutionary one.
I will emphasize what I'm saying again without great pride—actually with quite a cringe, and my members cringe. Do not trust our industry. Provincial regulations are based on trust. They are based on the idea that companies will follow the law if they are told what the law is. Remember this when you walk away from this table: 25% of companies, when they were told they were wrong in doing something, disappeared. They are gaming the system because we do not have the proper oversight, enforcement and penalties.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much.
On behalf of all members of this committee, I would like to thank our witnesses for giving us their time and sharing their expertise and their testimony with us today. I wish you safe travels home.
I'm going to suspend, colleagues, for five minutes to allow for the clerk to welcome our next round of witnesses.
The meeting is suspended to the call of the chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
I call this meeting back to order.
I'd now like to welcome our witnesses in the second panel.
I welcome Mr. Steve Bourgeois, consultant, who is appearing as an individual.
From the Truck Training Schools Association of Ontario, we have Ken Adams, chairman of the board; and from Kriska Transportation Group, we have Mark Seymour, chief executive officer, who is joining us by video conference.
Thank you all for taking the time to appear before us today.
We'll start with Mr. Bourgeois.
Mr. Bourgeois, you have the floor for five minutes to make your opening statement.
Steve Bourgeois Consultant, As an Individual
Good morning, everyone.
My name is Steve Bourgeois. I'm a consultant and certified trainer with the Commission des transports du Québec. I've been a truck driver for 34 years. I've done transportation in the United States, in Canada, and even on ice roads in the territories. I love it, but it's not like it used to be, unfortunately.
Thank you for welcoming us on behalf of the Assez, c'est assez group, or Enough is Enough. Thank you for taking the time to listen to what we have to say.
Our goal is to defend road safety, the dignity and legitimacy of our profession. We're speaking on behalf of the 15,000 citizens who signed our petition asking for your help. The Bloc Québécois responded by allowing us to do what we're doing today. We thank them very much.
The Driver Inc. phenomenon, which you've been hearing about for some time now, has an impact on taxation and employment. It has evolved since the 1990s and especially in recent years. I'd like to present another aspect of this phenomenon that will surely interest you. These are what we call “ghost drivers”.
The use of ghost drivers is on the rise in Canada. This practice circumvents security standards, insurance obligations and training requirements. It puts road users at risk, weakens the system and responsible businesses, and devalues truckers.
In Quebec, an increase in serious accidents has been demonstrated. Between 2023 and 2024, there was a 35% increase in fatalities. In 2025, that percentage will certainly be higher, given the cases we're already talking about. It's going to be quite a dramatic increase.
There's unfair competition with companies that comply with current standards. We aren't against the integration of new workers. On the contrary, we need them. However, we're against the exploitation of immigrants and the casualization of our trade.
Transportation is a regulated and demanding sector, which is essential for public safety. We're proposing solutions, such as increased on-the-ground screening by appropriate authorities, such as those related to immigration, the RCMP, the Department of Transport, police services and highway traffic controllers.
Clear penalties must be imposed on companies that hire drivers illegally. The word “hire” is overstated, because, as we'll discuss later, many of those drivers aren't even paid.
We're proposing concrete solutions. At the federal level, it would be to develop a national insurance database that would be accessible to all provinces, as was mentioned by the previous witnesses. The United States uses form MCS-90. We could learn from them here in Canada.
Immigration and worker status controls must also be strengthened through systematic checks of work permits and student visas. In fact, some drivers here are on student visas, driving trucks without a licence, without insurance and without training.
We also recommend that the government conduct national awareness campaigns and harmonize safety and training standards, such as Standard 16 and MELT, which are taught in schools and provide more training than the minimum required by government.
I'll conclude by adding that compliance with the rules shouldn't be optional. It's a condition of trust. We call for solidarity, vigilance and action. The Enough is Enough group continues to defend the rights of transport workers and the guarantee of a safe, fair and professional service for all.
I look forward to your questions.
I can answer in English if you prefer.
Thank you very much.
