Debates of April 29th, 1999

National Defence

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, members of the Reform Party are very inconsistent in this matter. They try to say that they want additional money to go into the budget. I read three of their documents and I do not know what part of the word reduce they do not understand. That is certainly in fact what they were advocating.

We value what our troops are doing over there. Canadians value what our troops are doing. It is a just cause that they are involved with. We want to make sure they have the proper equipment. They do and they will continue to have it.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is wrong. Our troops are the best in the world, but there is just not enough of them. The minister knows full well that there is not enough of them because the government has cut $500 million a year since it took office in 1993. Our Canadian armed forces are underfunded, underresourced and undermanned, and the minister knows it full well.

Will the Minister of National Defence stand in the House today and tell Canadians that he will go to cabinet and request a 10% increase in the defence budget? Will the minister do that now?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I remember over the last five years, while the Minister of Finance was bringing the fiscal House in order and we were getting the deficit under control, hearing from them constantly. They said “You can't go fast enough. Take it out of defence. Take it out of social services. Take it out of the pensioners”. That is what they were saying over there.

We have been able to manage the situation fairly well, to the point where we will send troops over there that are well equipped and will do a good job for Canada.

[Jim Hart, Reform, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is wrong again. He knows that he cut defence spending and other programs. At the same time they have increased spending and added $12.5 billion to program spending that is questionable in the first place in the latest budget.

The defence minister, the foreign affairs minister and the Prime Minister have positioned our troops for war. The PM has committed our troops. Is he as committed to giving them the resources they need to do the job?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am committed and the government is committed to giving them the resources they need to do the job. That is exactly what we are doing.

If hon. members opposite or any hon. member in the House would like to see what this equipment looks like, to see that it is the best possible equipment, it is just down the street at the Cartier Drill Hall.

We will have buses after question period that will take members down there. They could kick the tires and walk all over it and see that we have state of the art equipment which we are sending with our troops.

Kosovo

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the situation in Kosovo is intolerable. At least 650,000 Kosovars have taken refuge in neighbouring countries and 800,000 others have been driven out of their homes. Infectious diseases are beginning to make their appearance and malnutrition is turning into starvation. Time is of the essence.

With U.S., German, Greek and UN diplomats trekking to Moscow, may we know whether the Minister of Foreign Affairs will be taking a specific proposal to the Russians in an attempt to get them to be part of a rapid end to the conflict?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Foreign Affairs is taking part in very important discussions with the Russian foreign minister, his Greek counterpart, and UN secretary general Kofi Annan. The discussions are a critical part of the attempt to work out a suitable peace accord in Kosovo, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs will continue his discussions in person with the Russian foreign minister tomorrow.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell us whether the Minister of Foreign Affairs' proposal will have as its core involvement by the UN, with NATO continuing its present action, naturally, but under the co-ordination and leadership of the UN, so that the Russians could agree to such a peace plan?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, our Minister of Foreign Affairs is there not just as a representative of NATO, but also as a representative of a country with a seat on the security council.

We believe that the UN is a very important participant in these discussions. Obviously UN participation, which would include Russia, is vital to any future solution.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday we were entitled to a clear response by the Prime Minister of Canada to the call from the Deputy Prime Minister of Montenegro, who has said he is prepared to take up arms against the Milosevic regime to protect his oil reserves. The response was “so much the better”.

How does the Prime Minister reconcile this very offhand remark with the statement on Kosovo he signed in Washington on the weekend, and which provides, at article 5, that any action by Belgrade against the government of Montenegro would have serious consequences?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has raised important questions. I would respond by saying we are well aware of the tensions in Montenegro due to the activities of the Serb forces. We are, however, looking for a solution that does not necessarily entail a military response in this situation.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government of Montenegro wants to protect its citizens from civil war and economic collapse. It has indicated its readiness to receive foreign observers to ensure that oil delivered to it is not passed on to the Milosevic regime.

So, instead of responding in any old which way, in the “so much the better” style, should the Prime Minister not convince his allies to try every possible way to get the Serb government to concede, while minimizing the impact on Montenegro?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we are looking for the solutions needed in the context of the five conditions. This is why our Minister of Foreign Affairs is in Moscow today. We are looking for appropriate solutions in order to avoid problems for Montenegro and to ensure the Kosovars a safe return to Kosovo.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for either the Minister of National Defence or the Deputy Prime Minister.

Both will know that there has been a number of votes in the U.S. House of Representatives. One of those votes has created a situation in which it is clear that the American president would need to have a vote and the approval of Congress in order to send ground troops into Kosovo in a non-permissive way.

I ask the Deputy Prime Minister or the Minister of National Defence if a similar commitment could be made here so that Canadians can know that their democracy is not inferior to American democracy, so that before ground troops would be sent into Kosovo in a non-permissive way there would be a—

[The Speaker]

The hon. Deputy Prime Minister.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know exactly what happened in the U.S. House of Representatives. I think we should be taking our own decisions in this House based on Canadian practice. That is what we have been doing.

The Prime Minister has said that if there is a matter arising involving combat activities in Kosovo the House will be consulted, and the Prime Minister will stick with his word.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the American Congress is not only to be consulted. It will have the opportunity to actually express itself by way of a vote. That is all that the opposition has been asking here for weeks.

I repeat, is our democratic culture inferior to that of the Americans? Are we a banana republic or what is going on here? All we are asking for is that should a significant decision be made we want to have the opportunity to vote on it. If the Americans can do this, why can't we?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the NDP's cousins, their examples, the labour government of Britain, not only did not have a vote. They did not even have a debate. We are doing a lot better than that.

We said we will have further debate if the situation changes, and if the situation changes the Prime Minister said the matter of a vote is something that can be given further consideration.

Taxation

[André Harvey, Progressive Conservative, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

Can the minister tell us if it is possible for the governments of Quebec and Canada to systematically gouge their own taxpayers with sneaky and incomprehensible tax measures?

Let us take a single parent family with two children and a total income of about $31,000 for example. If the parent earns $1,000 more, he or she will have to pay an additional $1,056 in taxes. Does the minister find this acceptable, and will he wait until the next budget to improve the situation?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member must realize, I am not in a position to speak for the Government of Quebec.

As for the Government of Canada, I can tell him that not only have we reduced taxes, but in the example the hon. member has given, as a result of the last budget, a young family with two children and an income of $30,000 will have no federal tax to pay.

[André Harvey, Progressive Conservative, Chicoutimi, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance is aware that at present the Quebec and federal tax systems are demotivating; they encourage people to work under the table and, more importantly, encourage the brain drain. Statistics prove this.

Can the minister guarantee us a partial tax reform before the next budget, and will he also encourage the Quebec Minister of Finance to undertake a similar process?

We must not lose sight of the fact that, in the last provincial election, 58% of Quebeckers did not vote for referendum crises and existential definitions, they voted for lower taxes.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that one of the ways of attaining winning conditions for the betterment of our economy and our society is most certainly to have a working economy, job creation, and lower taxes.

It is our intention to continue to reduce taxes, as we did in the last budget and in the previous one.

As for encouraging my counterpart, the PQ Minister of Finance, I will try, but he does not always listen to me.

Aboriginal Affairs

[Mike Scott, Reform, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, when we asked the minister of Indian affairs in this House why there is no protection for Nisga'a women's rights in the Nisga'a treaty, the minister responded by saying that provincial laws will apply.

I would like to read to the House a quote from Dale Lovick, the NDP MLA, who stated in the April 15 debate in the legislature of British Columbia: “The Nisga'a treaty, to all intents and purposes, is silent on the issue of discrimination against women. It is effectively silent”.

Why did the government negotiate an agreement that is effectively silent on the rights of Nisga'a women?

[David Iftody, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, that is incorrect. I would suggest that the member is wrong in that interpretation of the agreement. I have a copy of the agreement here. Chapter 2, on the conflict between federal and provincial laws, it is expressly clear. I believe if the member reads it he will clearly see that the laws of general application apply, and those include the rights of women and matrimonial property.

[Mike Scott, Reform, Skeena, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the hon. member read the entire treaty because he is not correct. The minister of British Columbia who was responsible for putting this agreement together, Dale Lovick, has said that this treaty is effectively silent when it comes to women's rights and women's issues. Why is this government effectively silent? Why has it not stood to defend the rights of Nisga'a women when it comes to matrimonial property?