Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 56 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(a) and the motion agreed to on February 21, 2023, concerning foreign election interference.

Before we start, I remind everyone that all comments should be addressed through the chair. The clerk and I will maintain a consolidated speaking list of members wishing to speak.

Before I get into the first hour, Mr. Julian, I see that your hand is up. We love hearing your voice, and I can't hear it. Would you like to unplug and plug in again? I understand a sound check has taken place for all members joining us in a virtual capacity.

I can hear you now, Mr. Julian. Go ahead.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm not sure why, even when the sound check works, there's an initial problem, but I appreciate your patience.

I want to flag, as Mr. Cooper did yesterday, that following our questioning of the witnesses today, I will be moving the motion that I advised the committee of yesterday. My intention is to move it following the witnesses. It could mean an extension of time past the scheduled deadline, but hopefully we will come to a consensus and a quick conclusion on it. This is the notice of motion around the public inquiry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Julian. I recall your mentioning that several times yesterday. I will respect that and give you the floor after our witnesses. I appreciate your providing the space to ensure that people who have confirmed their attendance are able to come and provide us information.

Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Chair, very briefly, we will be dealing with motions after we hear from witnesses, as Mr. Julian has indicated, but we will be dealing with the Conservative motion first, which was shut down by Peter Julian to cover up for the Prime Minister and to block Katie Telford from appearing before this committee. She was a material witness for getting to the bottom of what the Prime Minister knew, when he knew it and what he did or failed to do about Beijing's election interference.

Lastly, I have to say that while I recognize our clerk is working hard under tight timelines to have Elections Canada, CSIS and the RCMP—all critical agencies with respect to the matter of interference—crammed in a two-hour period, it is really inadequate. While I appreciate the witnesses being here today, given those two hours for the RCMP, Elections Canada and CSIS, the only answer following today is that we'll need to hear from them again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent.

I see your hand, Mr. Julian.

These are public meetings, and I think we were able to see yesterday the courtesy offered to you, Mr. Cooper, when you asked for the floor following the panels. Members came together to ensure that was addressed. Mr. Julian has followed a similar model. We actually have three hours, not two hours, for today's meeting, and perhaps we can come to an understanding as to the order.

Right now, Mr. Julian has asked me if he can have the floor following the panels, and then I will let you have conversations.

Mr. Julian, do you have to add anything to this right now?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to clarify the marked and disturbing misinformation of Mr. Cooper. We were actually discussing the dating and amendment that would have allowed Ms. Telford to come to committee, and he tried to monkey with it. It was unfortunate and ridiculous.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

With that, I am going to let everyone watching and present know that we'll be here for more than three hours today.

I would like to proceed with our business of the day, as I know people are very interested in it.

For the first hour, from 10 a.m. to 11 a.m., we will have Stéphane Perrault, Chief Electoral Officer from Elections Canada, and Caroline Simard, commissioner of Canada elections from the office of the commissioner of Canada elections. I understand each of you will be providing remarks.

Mr. Perrault, we will begin with you, and then we'll come to Madam Simard.

Mr. Perrault, the floor is yours. Welcome to PROC.

[Stéphane Perrault, Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to be clear up front that I am not in a position to comment on the accuracy of the information in the Globe and Mail article referenced in the motion passed by the committee on February 21, as this information has not been shared with me, before or since.

While I urge you to consider the article with some caution, it raises issues that are extremely concerning for our democracy and for our sovereignty.

Foreign interference is not a partisan issue. It can target elected officials and members of all levels of government, from any party.

Canadians have a right to know that our institutions have clear mandates, that they have the tools to pursue those mandates, that there are mechanisms for collaboration and sharing information where appropriate, and that the laws are adequate. Canadians also have a right to know that every effort is deployed to tackle the threat of foreign interference. I would add in that regard that I commend the work of this committee. While it is not possible to draw a straight line between foreign influence and the outcome of a particular election, acts of foreign interference attack the fairness of the electoral process and must be addressed to protect our democracy.

When I appeared on November 1, I spoke of the importance of a whole-of-government approach. I would add that political parties, electoral district associations and local campaigns also have crucial roles to play. Foreign interference is conducted through a range of tactics, and countering those tactics requires an array of measures, both legislative and non-legislative.

Several suggestions have been made within and outside of this committee. None of them, including recommendations that I have made, provide a full and complete answer. We cannot totally shield ourselves from foreign interference, especially in an open and free society, but we can and we must increase our resiliency.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Perrault.

Go ahead, Madam Simard.

[Caroline Simard, Commissioner of Canada Elections, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I appreciate the invitation to appear before the committee again today.

As Commissioner of Canada Elections, I take the issue of foreign interference in our elections very seriously.

The Canada Elections Act defines the scope of my mandate and covers very specific activities related to foreign interference. This role is complementary to others who play a key role in protecting our democracy and with whom we collaborate.

Since my last appearance on November 1, additional allegations of foreign interference have circulated in the public environment and have led to complaints to my office.

I am seized with the importance of this issue, as well as the need to reassure Canadians under these exceptional circumstances.

I would therefore like to inform you that we have conducted a rigorous and thorough review of every piece of information that is been brought to our attention concerning allegations of foreign interference in both the 2019 and 2021 general elections.

I can also confirm that, as I speak, this review is ongoing to determine whether there is any tangible evidence of wrongdoing under the Canada Elections Act. This work is being conducted impartially and independently from the government of the day, the public service and even the Chief Electoral Officer.

I know that the outcome of this work will allow me to determine whether the allegations have merit under our act. This will not permit me to draw conclusions about the validity of election results overall or in a particular riding.

For reasons of confidentiality, I will not be able to provide further details regarding the ongoing review, complaints or any other information received by my office. As it is with any investigative body, confidentiality is essential to protect the presumption of innocence and, of course, to avoid compromising the integrity of our work. I would, however, invite anyone who has tangible information about potential wrongdoing under the Canada Elections Act, including any attempts at foreign interference in a federal election, to contact my office.

I would be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you so much, Madam Simard.

Now we will get into six-minute rounds of questions and answers or questions and comments, however you want to do them.

We will start with Mr. Cooper, who will be followed by Ms. Sahota.

Then it will be Ms. Normandin's turn, followed by Mr. Julian's.

Mr. Cooper, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Commissioner Simard, it's really simple: When did the Prime Minister's Office contact you about Beijing's interference in the 2019 and 2021 elections so that investigations could be opened?

[Caroline Simard]

I thank the member for his question.

As I pointed out in my opening remarks, information surrounding the work we're doing is protected by confidentiality. Therefore, I can't provide that information.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Did the Prime Minister's Office contact you, and if so, on what date?

[Caroline Simard]

Once again, I will give the same answer. Confidentiality—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay. You're not going to answer that. That's fine.

You've said that complaints have been provided to Elections Canada. How many? Did they pertain to Beijing's interference in our elections, yes or no?

[Caroline Simard]

First of all, I'd like to clarify that complaints are directed to my office, the Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections, and not to Elections Canada. So I'm going to speak for the organization that I lead, the Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections.

In my first appearance, I did refer to the complaints that had been submitted to my office. I will not repeat that here, so as not to take up too much of Mr. Cooper's time. I've already provided the information on the number of complaints. I have also confirmed that—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

How many?

[Caroline Simard]

For the 2019 election, we received 158 complaints regarding 10 situations.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Were there four complaints?

[Caroline Simard]

No. There were 158 complaints related to the 2019 election, and those concerned 10 different situations. For the 2021 election, we received 16 complaints about 13 different situations.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I asked you how many complaints have been brought forward. My question, if it wasn't clear, is this: How many complaints have been brought forward since you last appeared here, and are they related to Beijing's election interference?

[Caroline Simard]

Those issues have been dealt with. To respond to that question specifically, I will say that we have received complaints. Some of them are in the public domain, which is why I can provide that information here today.

Members will understand that, ordinarily, the confidentiality rule would prevent me from even answering that question. However, to reassure Canadians, once again, I am providing as much information as I can, and I can confirm that we have received complaints related to—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Perrault, I seek clarification to ensure that I understood you correctly. Did you say regarding the information contained in the Globe and Mail report that no one has shared the contents of that report with Elections Canada?

[Stéphane Perrault]

That is correct. Any information that on the face of it may relate to a possible offence under the Canada Elections Act would normally flow directly to the commissioner.