Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 2nd, 2023

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

I'm talking about the only three that were sent to you by the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer for the 2021 election.

[Caroline Simard]

Again, I don't know what complaints you are talking about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, you have up to five minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I want to clarify some things that I've heard, and I want a recap. The RCMP is responsible for investigating incidents of foreign actor interference across Canada, and it does so based on information from its own intelligence and partner agencies. The commissioner of elections is responsible for ensuring compliance with and enforcement of the Canada Elections Act, and you, Ms. Simard, do so based on your own investigative work as well as the intelligence provided by partner agencies and departments.

In both these two functions, the RCMP and the commissioner of elections make independent decisions as to whether to investigate based on complaints or information received. Would you say that is true, Ms. Simard?

[Caroline Simard]

In general, I would say that your description is accurate.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

We've seen, circulating in the media, reports that CSIS allegedly became aware of instances where the difference between the original political contribution and the refund a person gets at tax time was returned to donors.

Can you confirm, Ms. Simard, that this would be a contravention of the Canada Elections Act?

[Caroline Simard]

Again, this is a hypothetical scenario. In this context, I can confirm that provisions of part 18 of the Canada Elections Act could apply.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Great.

What about the report that CSIS allegedly found that business owners hired international Chinese students and assigned them to volunteer in electoral campaigns on a full-time basis? Is that also in contravention of the Canada Elections Act?

[Caroline Simard]

Again, this is a hypothetical scenario. With respect to financing, I would say that certain provisions could apply. They are, again, in part 18 of the Canada Elections Act.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Great.

You, being the commissioner, have the authority to investigate those types of matters. Is that correct?

[Caroline Simard]

Yes, my power is well defined in the Canada Elections Act. It is a power of observation and enforcement of the act.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

I'm sorry. I have short-answer questions.

If CSIS became aware of illegal activity, would you expect it to hand that over to you for an investigation to take place and appropriate action?

[Caroline Simard]

What I expect from my partners is of course that they provide me with that information. As soon as they have information on a situation that could contravene the Canada Elections Act, I expect that information to be shared with me, without prior assessment. You will understand that the assessment is done here.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

If there was action taken as a result of an investigation, would that be made public?

[Caroline Simard]

Investigations are confidential, for the reasons I explained earlier. Once official action is taken, certain information becomes public.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Within Bill C-76, you were given new powers and authorities to compel testimony by applying to a judge to have individuals basically be compelled under oath to testify on these matters. Is that not correct?

[Caroline Simard]

Generally speaking, I would say yes. If you want more details, I can provide them later.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have no more questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

Go ahead, Madame Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Since the beginning of the question and answer period, we have heard several examples reported in the media, which you concluded would hypothetically constitute violations of the Canada Elections Act.

I asked you in what way the RCMP and CSIS collaborated with you. You said that, if you had information that led you to believe there was interference, you would pass it on to the RCMP or CSIS, and that you would also expect the RCMP or CSIS to pass on information to you if there was potential foreign interference.

The Prime Minister mentioned yesterday that he felt that the existing systems were effective in preventing foreign interference. I don't seem to be hearing that from you; quite the contrary.

I would like to know what enables both the Chief Electoral Officer and the Commissioner of Canada Elections to have the authority to act preventively in cases of foreign interference, rather than to remedy the situation after the fact.

[Stéphane Perrault]

We have to realize that we live in a free and open society, and that's a very good thing. In Canada, people can say whatever they want on social media. They can withdraw money from the bank, meet with people and give them that money, without government oversight. But an open society also has constraints. For example, there is a risk that foreign states will take advantage of it. We don't have measures that would allow us to monitor citizens, and we don't want to have them.

What has emerged from the media revelations over the past few days and from the committee's work is the importance of educating not only the public, but also political parties, candidates and local associations about the risks of foreign interference, so as to build resilience to that interference. However, there is no mechanism to prevent foreign interference.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

However, once you receive information that there is foreign interference in a candidate's favour, you have no power to remedy the situation. Do I understand correctly?

[Stéphane Perrault]

We have to be careful. I don't know exactly what scenario we are talking about. We would have to know what the nature of the information is, whether it's intelligence or whether concrete evidence is available. There is a whole range of scenarios. It's difficult for me to comment on something so abstract.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Mr. Julian, go ahead.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Perrault and Ms. Simard, articles have been published that raise allegations of violations of the Canada Elections Act. My understanding is that this is not sufficient to reopen a file or to review a candidate's declaration or a nomination declaration again.

If this information is also provided to you by CSIS or through a complaint from the public, is that sufficient to review that declaration again to ensure that no violation of the Canada Elections Act with respect to finances has occurred?

We just talked about all the things that constitute violations of the act. If there are serious allegations about such violations, what does it take to reopen a file?