Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 2nd, 2023

[Caroline Simard]

First, I would like to clarify that the memoranda of understanding I was talking about were established long before these allegations of foreign interference. The allegations are getting stronger, and I feel that other such memoranda of understanding they emerge in the future.

The important thing to remember is that we must work together. I can assure you that our partners can count on our full cooperation, and CSIS and the RCMP have confirmed this to me recently.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

This question is for the commissioner specifically.

Have you found that through the investigations you're currently undertaking, CSIS and the RCMP have been bringing you information in order for you to undertake those investigations?

[Caroline Simard]

As I explained, I can't share information that is provided to me. I can simply confirm that the relationships are well established and productive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here, Ms. Simard and Mr. Perrault.

I will begin with some background. The Globe and Mail reported that the Chinese Consulate allegedly assisted a Toronto area candidate in his campaign and that CSIS recommended to the Prime Minister that the candidate be removed from the list of candidates. The Prime Minister responded that it was not within CSIS' purview to make recommendations on who should be a candidate.

As Commissioner of Canada Elections or Chief Electoral Officer, would you feel you had the legitimacy needed to make that kind of recommendation if you received credible information that a candidate was subject to foreign interference?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I can only speak hypothetically, because I don't know where information like that would come from. Normally, it would come from CSIS, not from some other source. That said, if I had the information, CSIS is the one I would share it with.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

What about you, Commissioner?

[Caroline Simard]

Again, in my case, I could report the information based on a very specific framework. On the other hand, if work was being done under those circumstances, the information would be made public once official action was taken.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

So I understand that if you had information that a candidate was subject to foreign interference, neither of you could make a recommendation to have that candidate removed from the ballot.

[Caroline Simard]

As far as I'm concerned, I have a mandate to ensure compliance and enforce the law. I do that job, and it doesn't include making that type of recommendation.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

What about you, as Chief Electoral Officer?

[Stéphane Perrault]

The rules governing the nomination race are set by each party. However, in the event of national security issues, CSIS deals with the situation.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

To your knowledge, is there anyone other than a party who can make a recommendation to expel a candidate for foreign interference, for example?

[Stéphane Perrault]

No one I know of has the authority to make that recommendation.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

If you are informed of potential wrongdoing during an election, do you typically get that information in time to be able to correct the situation? I'm not asking for details, because I understand that you can't give me any. That said, is your authority limited to confirming after the fact that wrongdoing took place and suggesting jail time or fines, or do you have any authority to prevent certain situations?

[Caroline Simard]

As far as I'm concerned, I have a compliance and enforcement role and, in that context, I have no prevention role. To put it plainly, my office does no monitoring. Specifically, I can do my job through criminal powers, exercising my authority to lay charges, or through administrative powers, potentially imposing official action.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Does information leading to charges need to have been made public? We've often been told that certain national security issues many pieces of information can't be made public due to national security issues. Whatever the case may be, can you lay charges based on information that is not public?

[Caroline Simard]

Let me make something clear.

My office is bound by confidentiality, as is any investigative agency, for legal reasons. That's because we need to preserve the presumption of innocence and make sure we don't compromise investigations.

So we do that job largely behind the scenes, in complete compliance with confidentiality. Only once we've reached certain thresholds are we permitted to take certain actions.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

In any event, if charges were potentially going to be laid on a candidate, I imagine the candidate would be notified.

[Caroline Simard]

I imagine that, in the course of an investigation, the individual would ultimately be called to testify. This is all hypothetical, of course.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

As I understand it, in the course of an investigation and when charges are laid, information can be made public. Can national security become a barrier to potentially laying charges against a candidate who is alleged to have interfered or participated in interference?

[Caroline Simard]

I act independently of the government of the day, the Chief Electoral Officer and the public service. I exercise my role independently.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

So the fact that information can't be made public because of a national security issue cannot be used as an excuse to prevent charges from being laid, for example.

[Caroline Simard]

No.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.