Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 2nd, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

With that, our time has come to an end.

I want to thank both you and your teams for your service and for being available to us as quickly as you were. I would like to thank you for your work.

If there is any additional information, as has been requested, can you please provide it to the clerk? We'll make sure it is circulated to members.

We know that at the top of this meeting.... This meeting is going to continue, but Mr. Cooper is asking for my attention.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses on behalf of the official opposition.

I know that Mr. Julian does have a motion on notice. However, it's my position that we need to finish unfinished business from last evening first, based upon a notice of motion that we had put and that resulted in an abrupt adjournment as a result of Mr. Julian.

I believe there is a very easy path forward. Mr. Julian has stated that he does want to see Katie Telford appear before this committee, just as the Bloc does, and certainly we want to see—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I have a point of order.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Yes. Okay.

I believe we can release our witnesses.

I have said to you that we would come back. I have said this now multiple times. I'm not sure how much more I can demonstrate that I would like our committee to function. I too believe we can find a quick path forward.

Mr. Gerretsen has a point of order first.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I was just going to encourage that we allow the witnesses to leave rather than subject them to this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Julian, was it you who asked for a point of order?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes, Madam Chair.

I think we should allow the witnesses to leave and have a brief suspension. As I have already indicated, I will be moving my motion on the public inquiry right after that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We are going to suspend for about five minutes and we are going to come back as members of the committee to figure out a way forward. Is that fine? Excellent.

With that, I'd like to thank our guests for joining us. Have a great day.

We'll be back in five.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Cooper, very clearly we suspended the meeting. We're returning to the meeting. As the chair, I am acknowledging Mr. Julian, and then you can have the floor.

Go ahead on a point of order, Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Madam Chair, suspending the meeting does not mean starting over again.

Just before you suspended the meeting, you gave the floor to Mr. Cooper. That was followed by two points of order, but Mr. Cooper still had the floor when you suspended.

I am saying and am convinced that you must, according to the long-standing rules, give the floor back to Mr. Cooper.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for that, Mr. Berthold.

I have confirmed that when we return to a meeting, it is a matter of who gets the chair's attention.

Before I even said anything, Mr. Julian had his hand up. I saw it on the screen in front of me, as I see people. Therefore—

Mr. Cooper, go ahead on a point of order.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I proposed a path forward rather than blowing up six hours of work from yesterday.

There were two points of order. You said that we would suspend and then we would deal with finding a path forward, and that's what I am seeking to do, because I wasn't even able to present my subamendment before I was cut off yesterday and the meeting was shut down.

I think if we're going to deal with the motions before us—and I am eager to get to Mr. Julian's motion, but I think it is appropriate that we deal with the motion that had been put on notice before and that had resulted in Mr. Julian shutting down debate yesterday. We all agree—or at least the NDP, the Bloc and Conservatives agree—that it is important that Katie Telford appear before this committee—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

On a point of order, this is not a point of order.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

—to answer questions about what she knows about Beijing's interference. I had put forward a very minor subamendment to Mr. Julian's amendment that would simply establish a panel comprising all chiefs of staff and national campaign chairs of all the parties for the 2019 and 2021 elections. The only person who would not be included in that panel was Katie Telford, and I gave reasons as to why she needs to appear before this committee alone.

The second part of my motion was simply to provide for—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Cooper, as you know, on a point of order, when you say “point of order”, I need to know the point of order.

I would have to agree—I have another point of order now—that this is not a point of order. I know you're going to say no, but that's not how this works.

On your point of order, thank you for your comments.

Mr. Gerretsen, go ahead on a point of order.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

First, Madam Chair, the screen keeps flickering in and out. Perhaps there is a way to fix that.

Yes, Madam Chair, I would concur that a point of order is to address a point about the manner in which the meeting has been conducted, not to enter into a debate about something one wishes they had had the opportunity to speak to.

In terms of a point of order, last night there was a motion on the table. There was a motion to adjourn, and then the committee adjourned. Whenever the committee restarts after that, the motion that had previously been debated is not subject to be initiated again. The mover of the motion has to move the motion again at their own discretion and when they decide to.

Mr. Cooper clearly heard Mr. Julian say earlier on that he was going to move a motion, so rather than following the normal customary practice of allowing the witnesses to leave before getting into committee business, Mr. Cooper tried to seize on an opportunity to circumvent the fact that he knew Mr. Julian was going to do that.

In terms of a point of order, there is no motion that is on the floor right now because we adjourned last night, and now we are at a starting point again, and I think it is incumbent upon you to respect the rules and to allow Mr. Julian to go first.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm just going to say, with respect to members saying “point of order”, yes, it gives you the floor but you can't just say “point of order” for the sake of saying “point of order”. That's what's happening right now.

Mr. Cooper, I'm going to try this one more time and then I am going to proceed with running the meeting.

What is your point of order?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Chair, what I am trying to do is to be reasonable here, which is to provide a path forward for this committee to, I would hope, deal with my amendment quickly, deal with Mr. Julian's amendment to my motion quickly, vote on the motion, and then turn to Mr. Julian's motion.

The points pro and con have largely been made. I've attempted to explain the rationale for my subamendment, but Mr. Julian and others have tried to shut me down in that regard. I don't know why this is so difficult. It shouldn't be difficult.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I agree with you. Why is this being difficult?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Well, it's because Mr. Julian took it upon himself to shut down debate midway through my intent to present—

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I'd like the member opposite to tell us what standing order he is referencing in terms of his point of order, because all we're doing right now is giving him the floor for debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm actually going to take back my role—

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Berthold, refer to your point of order.

I think by doing this we're clearly demonstrating what the intentions are. I think that might be unfortunate, because we say this is something that is really important and that all parties want to work on, and now I'm seeing perhaps true intentions coming out.

What is your point of order, Mr. Berthold?