Evidence of meeting #56 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
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NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr. Vigneault, I know you cannot share information related to the Group of Five. That said, there are similar measures that our partners must take. For example, with regard to Chinese interference, there are other rather public examples that suggest potential solutions.
I can give examples of Russian interference. There was extensive Russian interference in Donald Trump's election. We also saw that in the Brexit referendum. We also saw it in the funding that was given to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom. Of course, in Canada, we saw the so-called convoy being helped by Russian state actors.
My question is this. What lessons can we learn from our partners' experience that can be applied to Canada? Are you also concerned about the involvement of other countries in other groups like the convoy? In this case, it was foreign interference by Russia.
11:55 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Thank you for the question.
I'm not sure I have the same information about some of the things that have been mentioned, particularly in relation to the funding of the convoy by a foreign state. That is not the information we have.
Having said that, it is very relevant to talk about lessons learned from other countries. To answer a question that was asked earlier, Canadians are very fortunate in that we have a lot of allies and partners around the world. We work with people we can trust. Yes, there is the Group of Five, but there are also many other very capable partners who share their information with us.
We've learned lessons from the experience of other countries, such as with the registry that the member for Saint-Jean was talking about. I would say that there are also some things that we do in Canada that benefit our partners. This sharing of information, both classified and public, builds the resilience of our Canadian institutions.
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Liberal
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Vigneault, I am a bit of a novice when it comes to classified matters and national security. I admit that it is not something that I study every day. I have a question for you, which I put to Jody Thomas yesterday.
If the Canadian Security Intelligence Service passes classified information to an authorized person who is a member of a political party as part of a briefing, is that person allowed to pass the information on to others?
11:55 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
That is one of the things I talked about earlier, that we need to continue to work on.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
The process is not as clear as that. The person who has classified information has certain means to convey certain lessons or to give advice. The same goes for the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
So the classified information remains classified throughout the operation, is that right?
Noon
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
The specific information and the specific facts it mentions remain classified throughout the operation, yes.
Noon
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
If I understand correctly, a person who passes this classified information to someone else is committing an illegal act, according to the security classification system.
Noon
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Transmitting specific information is probably an activity that contravenes the act. On the other hand, I have to say that in my experience, you have to think about how people can use that information without giving all the details. That's a conversation we need to have.
Noon
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
I understand, but the fact remains that it is illegal to pass on this specific information. So if the campaign team of a candidate who is targeted by a CSIS investigation is informed of that investigation, repeating that would be illegal.
Noon
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I understand the need for committee members to have very specific answers regarding certain points.
On the other hand, I have to say that it is not just a matter of giving information and washing your hands of it. Indeed, you have to work with people and determine how they can use the classified information.
Noon
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
I understand that, Mr. Vigneault. However, under the current system, when information is classified, a person who has the necessary security clearance cannot pass that specific information to someone else.
Noon
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
The very specific information could not be conveyed directly.
Noon
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Duheme, Mr. Vigneault and Ms. Thomas confirmed that the Prime Minister had been informed on several occasions of the Chinese regime's interference in the 2019 and 2021 elections.
Did the Prime Minister refer any aspect of the Chinese regime's interference in the 2019 and 2021 elections to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP?
Noon
D/Commr Michael Duheme
No. It is very rare for the Prime Minister to submit something directly to the RCMP. If something is submitted, it is through Public Safety Canada. We did not receive anything.
Noon
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Did you receive any information from any member of the Prime Minister's Office staff regarding the numerous allegations of Chinese regime interference in the 2019 and 2021 elections?
Noon
D/Commr Michael Duheme
Not to my knowledge. The information we receive during the election process is given to us by the Security and Intelligence Threats to Elections Task Force, or by the service, as required.
Noon
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Did you receive any information from the Minister of Public Safety regarding the Chinese regime's interference in our electoral system in any way during the 2019 and 2021 elections?
Noon
D/Commr Michael Duheme
To my knowledge, we did not receive anything directly from his office.
Noon
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Are you saying that you did not receive anything from the minister, nor from cabinet?
Noon
D/Commr Michael Duheme
Not to my knowledge, but it is possible that someone passed on information without going through channels.
Noon
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Mr. Duheme, instead of relying on your memory, could you please consult the various records that list meetings and communications between the Prime Minister's Office and the Minister of Public Safety, and tell the committee whether such exchanges took place following the 2019 and 2021 elections?
