Evidence of meeting #56 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.
A video is available from Parliament.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
Thank you very much, Ms. Normandin.
Now, Mr. Julian, you have six minutes.
10:30 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr. Perrault and Ms. Simard, thank you for the non-partisan work you do every day to protect democracy. I'm grateful for that. It's a heavy burden, but your work is important.
I know you can't take a position on this, but former Chief Electoral Officer Jean-Pierre Kingsley also called for a public inquiry into foreign interference by China or Russia. That is significant. I know you can't comment on it, but I feel we're moving towards a public inquiry. In fact, the committee is going to discuss it in a few hours.
I wanted to start off by asking questions around the nomination process.
It is true that Elections Canada does not interfere with the nominations process, but every candidate for nomination does have to file expense claims and file a full and comprehensive review of the contributions they've received. In that case, for a nomination, if, for example, a bus was rented to transport people to a nomination meeting, should that have been included in the nomination expense declaration?
10:30 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
To be clear, not all nomination contestants have the obligation to file a financial return. Those who have spent or received more than $1,000 do have to file that return.
Specifically to the question, if a nomination contestant needs to file a return and has incurred expenses to promote his or her nomination, then that should be in the return, including the bus that you referred to.
10:30 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Okay.
On that same note, then, if somebody else paid for that bus to transport people to a nomination meeting, that contribution in kind is governed by what rules? What are the limits and how is that declared?
10:30 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Contributions, whether in kind or monetary, are governed essentially by the same rules. They are subject to the same limits and are subject to the same disclosure requirements.
10:30 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
If somebody rented a number of buses and the cost was over $1,600, for example, or $1,700, and that was declared as a contribution in kind—somebody else paid for it—would that be a violation of the Elections Act?
10:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
A contribution, in kind or financial, that is above the $1,600 limit would be in violation of the act. Yes.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Could a contribution in kind come from somebody who is not a Canadian citizen or not a Canadian resident?
10:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It has to come from a citizen or a permanent resident.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Anyone else paying for that contribution in kind would also constitute a violation of the Elections Act.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
If somebody who was a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident made a contribution and that money was reimbursed to them but they were still given the credit and the tax receipt for the contribution, is that in violation of the Canada Elections Act?
10:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
That would be a violation. There are many scenarios around that, but essentially, if a contribution is returned, it's not a true contribution and there are violations around that scenario.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Okay. These are all cases that could be violations.
If a complaint was issued, even after the fact, for a filing of a nomination candidate or for a candidate in the election, is that not something that Elections Canada would refer to the commissioner of elections?
10:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
If there was a factual element at any point, if there was any basis to refer that to the commissioner, yes, we would.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
You would investigate it initially. You would look at the candidate's return or the candidate's nomination return, and if you see discrepancies or if the complaint touches on things that have not been declared within those declarations, you would be investigating it and then referring it to the commissioner of elections.
10:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
We would use that information as part of the audit to inform the audit, but depending on the nature of the information and what we find in the audit, if there is any potential violation, we don't make that determination. If there's a possible violation of the act, then it is referred to the commissioner, and it is her decision alone to decide how to deal with the matter.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
In the event that the individual has already made a statement, and verification has been completed and accepted by Elections Canada, you can still reopen a file should new information arise.
10:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Closing a verification file does not condone behaviour. Closing a file simply states that we've completed the verification steps and no further review is required at this time. Should we receive any additional information that could influence how we interpret the file, we may reopen verification and, if appropriate, refer the case to the Commissioner's office.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
I'd now like to talk about breaches of the Canada Elections Act. Many will recall the Dean Del Mastro case: He violated the Canada Elections Act and tried to hide it.
What is the range of penalties for this type of breach, either not fully disclosing information or attempting to conceal violations?
10:35 a.m.
Commissioner of Canada Elections, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
My office has prepared a document outlining maximum penalties based on offences. I believe that document might answer your questions. So it would be more efficient if you would review that document.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
Thank you.
Now we will start the five-minute rounds with Mr. Cooper, followed by Mr. Turnbull.
Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.
10:35 a.m.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Berthold.
Would it violate the Canada Elections Act to funnel money through proxies to a nomination or election candidate?
10:35 a.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Directed contributions are unlawful under the Canada Elections Act, yes.