Official Languages Committee on May 27th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Good morning everyone and welcome to the 34th meeting of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Before starting, I would like to emphasize a few points. First, I want to offer my personal thanks to those committee members who yesterday attended the reception held for the visit of the Finnish delegation. That reception was held in cooperation with the Commissioner of Official Languages, Mr. Graham Fraser. Finland is also in a situation of linguistic duality. The languages in its case are Swedish and Finnish. We'll no doubt have occasion to repeat the experience to familiarize ourselves with the bilingual situation of other countries.

This morning, for our study on the broadcast by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation of the Canadian Songwriters' Hall of Fame Gala, we are pleased to have the President and Chief Executive Officer of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, Mr. Hubert Lacroix, whom I welcome.

Colleagues, I remind you that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is subject to the Broadcasting Act, which clearly states that the corporation enjoys independence with regard to its programming.

Without further ado, I would invite Mr. Lacroix to make his presentation. Then we'll move on to questions. Mr. Lacroix, you're familiar enough with the committee's procedures, aren't you? Your presentation will be followed by questions asked by members from each of the parties.

Mr. Lacroix.

[Hubert T. Lacroix, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation]

Good morning.

Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I understand you would like to talk this morning about the mandate of CBC/Radio-Canada and the recent broadcast of the Canadian Songwriters' Gala on our airwaves.

I have been President and CEO of CBC/Radio-Canada for five months now and I can tell you I am keenly aware of our responsibility to serve French and English-speaking Canadians.

Sometimes we do this together through CBC/Radio-Canada joint projects. Sometimes we do it separately, finding ways to share parts of one language culture with the other in a way that will resonate with the audience.

In the case of the Canadian songwriters gala, you've heard the details of how we tried to do this on our various platforms from Richard Stursberg. He also told you about other ways we promote francophone culture with English audiences. I can repeat or add to what Richard Stursberg told you with respect thereto, if you wish.

Some Canadians, including organizers of the Gala, disagreed with the decisions made by our programming teams for the Gala. Last month in fact, we agreed to allow the organizers to explore other broadcast options for next year's gala.

While disagreements are part of the reality of the hundreds of programming decisions we make every day, I can tell you that we have heard the concerns expressed. We recognize that we could have done a better job of reflecting the diversity of the performances in our television broadcast of the gala. And while these are programming decisions that are ours to make, these events have raised our level of awareness on these issues and I can tell you that we will do a better job with these kinds of broadcasts in the future.

I do not accept the judgment that, by our programming decisions in this one instance, the public broadcaster was not fulfilling its mandate. The mandate is very broad. So broad, in fact, that no one of our services can presume to be all things to all people, even less so within the space of a single broadcast. You have to look at the range of programs and services we offer. That is how we fulfil our mandate to Canadians.

In every programming decision we make, there will be some people who will believe we should have done something different. Sometimes even we will think so. We listen to the concerns of the Canadians we serve and we take those concerns into account in the choices we make for the future.

The Broadcasting Act is very broad about our mandate to Canadians but very clear about our programming independence. We will continue to work very hard with the resources we have to fulfil the trust Canadians have placed in us.

I will be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you, Mr. Lacroix. We will now move on with the first round.

We will begin with Monsieur Denis Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Lacroix, and thank you for being here. I welcome the tone and respect of your speech, which contrasts with that your vice-president unfortunately made in his appearance last week.

I absolutely understand the notions of independence and programming. You can repeat them three, four, five or 20 times; the fact nevertheless remains that, as the representative of a public television network, your mandate is to show what Canada is.

We can hail the work you've done to broadcast Les hauts et les bas de Sophie Paquin in English. We could talk about Mitsou again and all kinds of events. I'm a CBC/Radio-Canada viewer. Nevertheless we're talking about a gala whose purpose is to celebrate our country's songwriters.

I would have liked to see the parliamentary secretary, who has let us down again today, because it is important to hear from the government's representative. He no doubt has a reason for not being here.

I didn't understand why that kind of cut had been made, nor why Mr. Stursberg told us that when people hear francophones on CBC, they change channels. You remember that, and I don't think I'm causing a problem by saying it. At a meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, I asked you whether you changed channels when you heard an anglophone on Radio-Canada. The answer was obviously no.

We should therefore consider a number of questions. What was the reason for deleting the entire francophone component of that program? More specifically, for our television viewers, are there any studies on the subject? If your role is to bring together what has often been called the two solitudes, you have to do more than translate an event to show some sensitivity, for which I congratulate you. When a gala celebrates what our country represents, it is up to the CBC, even if Radio-Canada has refused to do so, to represent the two official languages, the two sides of the artistic field during that particular one-time event.

Are you aware of and sensitive to the concerns? We've talked about some good francophone artists. Can you guarantee us that we'll be able to see them next year? What do you intend to do, as president?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Coderre, there are two aspects to your question.

Mr. Richard Stursberg tried to explain to the committee that every Radio-Canada program has a specific mandate, whether it is a summary of the gala that we did, which was intended for an anglophone audience, or the program Tout le monde en parle, which is broadcast on Sunday evenings, which is intended more particularly for the Quebec audience, because that is its mandate. Every program has a mandate.

My notes and my appearance before the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage mentioned that gala organizers asked us to be released from the rights that we had to the radio and television broadcasts of the gala next year. We obviously told them that we would not exercise our rights and that they could examine all options and come back to Radio-Canada or resort to any other form of broadcasting to decide the best way to promote their gala next year. Consequently, I have no idea about the organizers' decisions regarding next year's gala.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

In that case, if CBC/Radio-Canada agrees to broadcast the gala... It was broadcast in full on the radio. We heard Claude Dubois, Raymond Lévesque and the others. It was good.

This is a special gala that represents all songwriters and paints a cultural picture of Canada. As president, will you commit to ensuring that the broadcast of the gala is not cut along linguistic lines?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Coderre, you're right: radio is a much better medium for promoting or broadcasting a gala of this kind. As you said, Radio Two broadcast the entire gala.

As for next year, I don't know what the gala organizers will come and tell us, but I repeat—and I said so this morning in my introduction—that we understood and saw certain things that we did in the context of that gala which could have been improved. We will learn the necessary lessons if they ever come back to us for a programming project.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

More generally, Mr. Lacroix, you mentioned that every program has its own mandate. Even Tout le monde en parle has had anglophone guests; a kind of translation was provided and, in a way, that also reflected the diversity of Quebec and even of the world. As Radio-Canada has a mandate and is a public television network, and to the extent that we must celebrate that diversity, do you think that, in future, we must be more sensitive, regardless of the program, when it concerns that diversity, and that it must be, in a way, a forum to show what Canada is? Do you think there was a lack of sensitivity, that we are an isolated, unfortunate case and that, in future, you will ensure that francophones don't feel they are second-class citizens?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Coderre, far be it from me the idea that francophones are second-class citizens. I'm a francophone myself, and I don't consider myself a second-class citizen.

Should we be more sensitive? In my presentation, I told you what happened: the impact from the gala has increased our level of sensitivity to this kind of thing. I also told you that we would take the necessary steps to be even more sensitive to that kind of impact.

[The Chair, Conservative, Steven Blaney]

Thank you very much, Mr. Coderre.

We'll now continue with the Bloc Québécois representative, Mr. Richard Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, Mr. Lacroix.

First, do you think members of the House of Commons are justified in interfering in matters related to the programming of Radio-Canada and the CBC? Do you think that parliamentarians have gone too far with regard to the Hall of Fame Gala?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Nadeau, I will simply refer you to the respect that I know all parliamentarians have for the Broadcasting Act and the independence that CBC/Radio-Canada enjoys under that act. As the Chairman of the Official Languages Committee said at the outset, and as the Chair of the Canadian Heritage Committee has said, all individuals who interact with the representatives, the officers of our company who appear before those committees have always enjoyed parliamentarians' respect with regard to our programming.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

All right, thank you very much.

Do you think that the CBC—and I mean the CBC—should help do more to make francophone Quebec artists known across Canada?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I'm very pleased that you've raised that question because I have all kinds of information with me this morning. Part of that information was given to you by Richard Stursberg. We could forward it to you again and inform you that, in the past two years, the number of times that the CBC—the CBC alone—has presented francophones in the context of galas or programs from our transcultural fund or joint projects between the CBC and Radio-Canada. There's a long list of them. I don't know whether your want me to take your committee's time this morning to talk about it, but that information is available and we would be pleased to give it to you, Mr. Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

So you think the CBC is doing a significant job in this field?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Absolutely.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

All right. With respect to the Hall of Fame Gala as such, the show that got a lot of coverage, do you think there were specific errors in the broadcasting of the 44-minute program after part of the show given by our artists was edited out? Do you think there were any errors that should not reoccur?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

First, I remind you of the answer to the first question you asked me on the extent of the programming independence that we enjoy under the Broadcasting Act. Mr. Nadeau, that 44-minute summary was prepared by CBC programmers whose job it was, and which they did properly, to summarize the Hall of Fame Gala in 44 minutes for an anglophone audience. However, I would remind you that, in hindsight, as I told Mr. Coderre a moment ago, our institution confirms—and Richard Stursberg also wrote this himself—that we could have done better in the circumstances.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I'd also like to hear what you have to say on another subject. Do you think that the presentation of artists singing in French would have lowered the interest of anglophone viewers watching CBC that evening?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Mr. Nadeau, the people who listened to Radio-Canada radio, which is in fact CBC radio, both Radio One, which presented a summary of it, and Radio Two, which broadcast it in full over three and a quarter hours, heard the francophone singers, heard the speeches of the individuals inducted into the Canadian Songwriters' Hall of Fame. It was also an evening during which Oscar Peterson and Paul Anka were celebrated.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

We were told that, if there had been francophones or artists singing in French, the CBC television audience would not have been interested and might have changed channels because it was in French. Do you agree with that?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I repeat that the purpose of Richard Stursberg's speech was to explain to you that that program had a mandate, just as the main purpose of all other programs is to build bridges between anglophones and francophones. That was not the purpose of that program that evening.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I repeat my question, which you haven't answered. Do you think that people would have changed channels because it was in French?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I answered that question, Mr. Nadeau. If it had been me, and what I was watching was interesting, I would not have changed channels.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Do you think that if Radio-Canada had had that mandate and had excluded anglophone singers, the situation would have been the same?