Evidence of meeting #41 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Unless someone shows me the contrary, I'll take your word, Chief.
I wanted to ask this, though. It has come to my attention that in the number of police officers assigned, there were actually some RCMP officers involved as part of that team.
4:10 p.m.
Chief, Ottawa Police Service
There were about 15 on the team. Full-time, there were two Ottawa Police Service investigators. The rest were RCMP investigators. It became a much larger investigation than was initially intended, and it was through the cooperation and liaison with Assistant Commissioner Gork that other RCMP investigators were assigned from different divisions across the country.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Let me get this straight now. The team resided out of the RCMP offices?
4:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
The deputy commissioner had authority over operational matters and, on top of that, over the administrative matters. On top of that, we had only two of your officers full-time and all the rest were RCMP.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
This is the problem. Would you not agree that it doesn't look very arm's-length?
4:10 p.m.
Chief, Ottawa Police Service
I think the opportunity to explain that fully, Mr. Christopherson, is necessary. I don't find it particularly unusual. I look to the Toronto example.
I can tell you that for administrative purposes it was necessary to have a senior liaison person within the RCMP to provide the resources, get the space, the cars, the computers, all of the things that make the investigation run. But when there are operational questions, the lead investigator comes to me.
That's why a crown attorney was assigned. We distanced ourselves from the federal Department of Justice. We went to the local crown attorney and used them. We didn't rely on the RCMP audit. We went out and obtained another independent forensic audit. That forensic audit came to the same conclusion that our investigators and the crown attorney came to about the threshold for criminal charges.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I would still be of the opinion, though, that it doesn't look very good. I haven't yet heard anything, but it may yet come out—
4:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It doesn't look good, and I would hope both you and others will take that into account.
Over to you, Commissioner. Your predecessor, after initiating a criminal investigation, cancelled it two days later. Why?
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
My understanding around that—and I'm repeating this from a briefing—is that he felt an internal audit was a more appropriate way to begin to broach the situation.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Why? Obviously he felt that way, because he made the decision. Somebody has to give me that answer, Commissioner.
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
May I?
The internal audit branch stands ready at all times to go into a sector or unit and initiate a very in-depth audit that will look at any alleged irregularities. When the first investigation was called for, the commissioner of the day felt that rather than going in with a narrow focus, he wanted to know exactly what was going on. He wanted to know the depth, the scope, and the breadth of what was going on. He wanted to have it spelled out by professionals.
Our internal audit branch, as I said, went in and did a very exhaustive internal audit. When that report was tabled shortly thereafter, a criminal investigation was requested of the Ottawa Police Service.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'm going to get into that in a moment. However, I would still say that at the end of the day, it would look like that was the wrong call, given that criminal investigations, at least at another point, were started up again. Maybe they should have continued, because the timing here was a real problem. We ran out of time because there was no internal audit started at the same time as the criminal one, as I understand it. That decision was very problematic. For those who are alleging that there was something untoward behind these things, this is just another example of how even if everything is 100% okay, sometimes it doesn't look good in hindsight.
This question is for either one of you or anyone who can answer it. At the end of the day, the RCMP have said there was administrative wrongdoing, not criminal wrongdoing, and yet they called them criminal investigations from the start. These things Mr. Williams has raised here--allegations of kickbacks, even though they found nothing substantive on that one, hiring practices, management overrides--are all just administrative? Somebody hired their whole family at twice the rate that everybody else was paid and that's administrative? Somebody help me.
4:10 p.m.
Chief, Ottawa Police Service
Mr. Chair, I can speak to that, if I may. Certainly the threshold for criminal responsibility and accountability is different from that for unethical behaviour, mismanagement, those kinds of very serious conduct. But we relied on the forensic accounting report and the opinion of the crown attorney who looked at all of the evidence, who met regularly with the team, who went to the investigator's offices and spoke with them and came to the conclusion that there was no reasonable prospect of conviction for criminal offences in all of the things you've described.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
But that's not to say they weren't criminal. They just couldn't prove it.
4:15 p.m.
Chief, Ottawa Police Service
There was no conduct there that was chargeable to bring before a court in which people would be convicted of it.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
But who would have made that decision? Now I realize it would have been a recommendation from the Crown, or does the Crown actually decide that?
4:15 p.m.
Chief, Ottawa Police Service
Well, the crown attorney determines, by the threshold used in Ontario, that there is no reasonable prospect of conviction. The police could go ahead and lay a charge, but the Crown, as we have found in the past, is the one responsible for prosecuting it, and if they don't see a reasonable assurance of conviction, they're not going to prosecute it.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I didn't even mention the fact that there were contracts let out for work that was either of little value or no value, which, if you recall, is what sparked the sponsorship scandal. That was the opening shot. That one ended up being criminal. But again, all of this seems to fit nicely on the administrative side and doesn't cross over. This becomes problematic, especially given the fact that two people seem to have resigned over it. You wanted to take internal action, but then you were prohibited by that. Did nobody sit down and scope out the timeframes involved and the legalities so that you wouldn't be in this situation? Again, as was pointed out, we have all these...let's call them irregularities. People have resigned, but nobody has been held accountable.
I say to the chief and to the commissioner--more to the commissioner, I guess, but to both of you--who is going to be accountable for all this?
Thank you, Chair.
4:15 p.m.
Chief, Ottawa Police Service
Mr. Chair, the clock started on the one year when we tabled our report with the RCMP. That's when the commissioner officially became aware of all of the allegations, because our report indicated all of this mismanagement and other information. It was all contained in there, together with the report that the conduct that was uncovered fell short of the criminal standard.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
