Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2007

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I thought the commissioner had something to say on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I interrupt you? Sorry, that was my fault.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Sorry, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to add to that. We had been struggling with a number of issues around the statute of limitations as it applies to discipline in the RCMP Act for a period of time, with different interpretations at different levels of court. The clock may have started ticking at that time or prior, but certainly it wasn't until 2006 when a decision out of the Federal Court solidified or clarified that point to such a degree that we realized there was really no place to go with it for the time being.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I just have one quick question following up on that answer. If you say the clock ticked on the internal RCMP sanctions, and if you missed the one-year limitation, what about suing them civilly? You have a situation here of $3.4 million being wasted, and I would think that these people would probably be liable civilly, because the threshold of proof is totally different. It's not beyond a reasonable proof; it's just on a balance of probabilities. Was there any consideration given to suing these two people who were allowed to resign with no sanctions, for return of the money? Just as an aside to that, you're saying we returned the money to the pension fund, but really what you're saying is the Canadian taxpayers returned the money to the pension fund.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

I wasn't privy to the discussions or the decisions around how this was dealt with, but I don't know that there was ever any consideration around taking a civil action.

I would ask Mr. Gauvin to clarify this to a much more definitive degree from the accounting perspective, but my understanding is that the vast majority of those funds were administratively ledgered improperly rather than stolen, if that's the word I might use. I'll ask Mr. Gauvin to clarify this.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Some moneys were charged to the pension fund that really should have been charged to appropriations. The work was done. When you work with this, there is very little difference between pension, life insurance, and HR. So if you go to a conference, for example, and they talk about all three of them, where do you charge it?

After we went back we looked at every transaction over $50,000 and reversed a lot of charges that we thought should have been charged to appropriations, as opposed to the pension fund. So that was part of the reversal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Bevan, you stated that Assistant Commissioner Gork hired the RCMP officers of the so-called Ottawa police investigation. Is that correct?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

I wouldn't say he hired them. He made sure that officers were assigned as required. Typically they came from other divisions and had the expertise and background for this kind of investigation.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So he was the one choosing who would be doing the investigation.

[Chief Vince Bevan]

I'm not sure I would agree with you that he was choosing. He was facilitating that to be done.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So who was making that decision?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

From what I understand, when it became clear that the scope of this investigation was overwhelming for two investigators, Assistant Commissioner Gork went to the other regions and asked other deputies if they could find some qualified investigators who were able to come to Ottawa to take up this investigation. So he didn't pick or choose anybody; they were the people in the regions who were seen to have the skill sets necessary and could be let go to come in to do this.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So there was a process, but it appears that Assistant Commissioner Gork was in charge of that process to find the RCMP officers in charge of the Ottawa police investigation.

[Chief Vince Bevan]

That's correct.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Who makes the decision to remove someone? Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell was physically removed and his computer and files were seized. Did you give that order?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

I didn't give that order, but I was aware that there was an issue.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay. Did the order come from the RCMP, sir?

[Chief Vince Bevan]

I was briefed on that issue by Inspector Roy, who was the lead investigator from the Ottawa Police Service. I was aware that there were issues. I don't know who gave--

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Did the RCMP give that order? You're the chief of police, so obviously if it happened within the Ottawa police, you would know.

[Chief Vince Bevan]

I would know.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Ms. George, you said it wasn't yourself or Mr. Zaccardelli. Now we know that Assistant Commissioner Gork was in charge of finding the officers to lead this criminal investigation. Was it Mr. Gork who made the decision to have Mr. Frizzell removed?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I can speculate, if you wish me to speculate. I wasn't involved in this criminal investigation.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Ms. George, I am stunned. Here you have a criminal investigation following up on a criminal investigation that was shut down by the commissioner two days into it. An internal audit recommended a criminal investigation. You have a criminal investigation, you're in charge of human resources, one of your officers who is the lead investigator on an investigation going on for 15 months is physically removed by two officers from his office, and nobody seems to know who gave that order?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I never was and am not now in charge of the sergeant we are speaking about right now.