Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 21st, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

If I can interrupt, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, I don't want anyone to speculate at this hearing, but I suggest that the commissioner, assisted by Ms. George, undertake to provide us in writing the circumstances surrounding the so-called alleged dismissal of Sergeant Frizzell.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Let me see. I have the exact title. Yes, it's Staff Sargeant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Yes, Staff Sargeant Frizzell. We would like that within a week, Commissioner, because we will be writing a report.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Would it be possible to share the actual document? I would assume that if someone is being removed, there would be an actual document that would have to be served. So that document, with the signature of the individual who authorized this....

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

With an explanation of the circumstances surrounding the removal.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

If such a document exists, we will get that and provide it to you.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

You have my undertaking.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Gauvin, you're the deputy commissioner for corporate management and comptrollership. Nepotism is a violation of section 30 of the Treasury Board conflict of interest guidelines. Why didn't you begin an investigation when the audit clearly identified that there was a rampant problem with nepotism within the department? Was it perhaps because the daughter of Mr. Ewanovich, your golfing buddy we mentioned earlier, was one of the people hired, and that the stepdaughter and niece of your other golfing buddy, Mr. Crupi, were among those hired?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Sir, they were not my golfing buddies. We were all part of the Pension Advisory Committee. The chairman called a meeting at St. Andrews, and as part of that meeting there were golf games. They were not my golfing buddies; they never have been.

In terms of nepotism...it's not my area of responsibility; staffing is an area of HR. I'm sorry, I can't speak on that particular subject.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Sir, it seems everyone's passing the buck and nobody seems to know.

This was a serious investigation of criminality surrounding pension and insurance funds of rank-and-file RCMP officers. You're the chief corporate management and comptrollership officer. You're a deputy commissioner. There are very clear Treasury Board rules. You're sloughing this off to someone else.

Everyone seems to be passing the buck on this.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. I'm not trying to pass the buck. I'm just trying to be real.

There was an internal audit. It brought out certain allegations. After that internal audit, it was mentioned there was a criminal investigation and from that they determined, totally independently, whether charges should be made. They came to the conclusion it was administration.

But the staffing was not my area of responsibility.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Ms. George, Dominic Crupi was one of that group of nine who was playing golf at St. Andrews. He was also the individual who hired the consultant to bypass normal procedures and regulations in hiring people.

The so-called Ottawa police investigation determined that 49 of 65 people hired were family and friends, including Mr. Crupi's own family and Mr. Ewanovich's own family. All of these details came out. And what happens with Mr. Crupi? I understand he got 18 months of leave with pay. Is that correct?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Mr. Crupi was suspended.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

With pay?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Yes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

For 18 months?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

There was a certain period of that time when there were health concerns, after which he resigned.

Would you like me to speak on the hiring practices? I could speak to those rather than my colleague here.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

No, I think I'd prefer to go elsewhere.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

No, we're out of time, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Perhaps I'll give you 15 seconds, Ms. George, to talk on this.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

The RCMP agrees that there were hiring misfortunes. There were certain policies that were definitely worked around. The allegations of nepotism, that certain direct relatives were hired and that the staffing policies in place were, again, circumvented, certainly appeared to be fact. The RCMP agrees to that.

The people who were responsible for those actions are no longer with the RCMP. We have taken every control and every mechanism to, as far as possible, ensure that these anomalies don't occur again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Mr. Fitzpatrick, eight minutes.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you very much.

I agree with Mr. Christopherson. This doesn't look good. This is the second situation that's cropped up. Something that didn't look good a few years ago is this sponsorship scandal, when it was shown there was money in a separate bank account and no clear mandate what happened to it. I think it ended up buying horses or something at the end of the day. But it didn't look good to me, and I don't think it looked good to the public.

I reiterate what Mr. Williams says, that the public have to believe that the senior levels of our police force and our criminal justice system are people who live by the highest standards of conduct in society. So in that sense, it just doesn't look good.

The people who were disciplined--I want to be clear on this because it seems we're talking about misconduct and about administrative problems and so on. Am I correct in assuming that their major sin was that they were more on the incompetent end as far as managing and administering things, or was it a question of people crossing the lines in terms of what I'd call the ten commandments?

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Are you addressing the questioning--

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Yes.

[Commr Beverley Busson]

Thank you very much.

In this circumstance, I've been advised that Chief Bevan may be better able to answer that question, specifically with regard to--