Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2007

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Mr. Chair, if I may make a point, I offered to speculate. When Dave Gork gave me the e-mail and told me who it was, he said, “Barb, who would you have said?”--because you said don't speculate. I would have said that it was Assistant Commissioner Gork who gave it. He said, “Well, I did, but through Paul Roy.”

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay, let me continue on.

This is later on, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You have two seconds, Mr. Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

This is my last question.

It was asked that you submit a letter to this committee: “I suggest that the commissioner, assisted by Ms. George, undertake to provide us in writing the circumstances surrounding the so-called alleged dismissal of Sergeant Frizzell.”

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj said, “I would assume that if someone is being removed, there would be an actual document that would have to be served.” Your response, Ms. George, was, “If such a document exists, we will get that and provide it to you.”

You were aware that a document existed. You were told that he had been served formally, weren't you?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

This was years ago, and I didn't know whether or not I could get my hands on that document. We went back—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I didn't ask you if you could get your hands on it. I asked if you were aware of it.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I had been told that there was a document. It came to me by e-mail.

Mr. Williams, whether or not I could have gotten my hands on that document remains to be seen. In fact, it was retrieved, and it was also attached to the letter. Do you know what wasn't attached to the letter, Mr. Williams? It's very unfortunate.

I went to Assistant Commissioner Gork, who was still in Lyons, and I asked him four questions: Who took the decision to remove him? What were the circumstances around it? How was it effected? What effect did it have, if any, on Sergeant Frizzell's career? He wrote me a very fulsome e-mail, which I presented to the commissioner. I said, you know what, here are the answers that the committee is looking for regarding the dismissal or removal of Sergeant Frizzell.

By the way, Inspector Roy says he wasn't removed, he was simply turned back, because the whole team was dismantled. It's a point, Mr. Williams. It's an important point.

I asked that the e-mail be given to the—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I think this letter was a removal. It wasn't a dismantling of the investigation.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Well, I could let Inspector Roy speak to that.

But that e-mail gave everything that we needed, and I asked that the e-mail be attached to the letter going back to this committee.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Why wasn't it?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

The decision was taken—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

By?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

By the commissioner, I believe, and DOJ--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Who is DOJ?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

--the Department of Justice, which worked with the RCMP--to keep it to a minimum. The reason they kept it—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

We asked for a fulsome report, Mr. Chairman. Since when do the Department of Justice and the RCMP decide on their own that they are not going to tell us the information that we asked for?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Don't ask me, Mr. Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I think we should be asking them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

It's the first I've heard of it.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

The logic that was put forward, committee members, was that since Assistant Commissioner Gork was being flown in from Lyons and would be here in person, it would be better to hear from him in person, live and fresh, to give you all of the details. That is the decision that was taken, and I wasn't part of it.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I have to take severe exception to these decisions, Mr. Chairman. This committee, a parliamentary committee, asked for a full explanation. All we got was a simple letter of the dismissal of Sergeant Frizzell. Now we find out there were discussions between the Department of Justice and the senior RCMP to keep this committee in the dark. That cannot be allowed to stand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

To follow up on that point—and we're going to move on, Mr. Williams—I want to get this absolutely clearly.

Are you telling us that since you testified at the last hearing and were to provide a report, there were meetings with the Department of Justice, and they decided not to provide the information?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Mr. Chair, we have our own internal legal people who were sitting with us when we were looking at this letter. Besides the document that had been retrieved in relation to Sergeant Frizzell, there was also the e-mail that came in from Assistant Commissioner Gork. It outlined, in paragraph form, exactly what led up to the removal. I presented that at a meeting. Our legal people were there and the commissioner was there.

I said this was it right there, and that it would explain to the committee exactly how this occurred. It was decided that, to keep it simple, just the memorandum to Sergeant Frizzell would be attached, and then David Gork would be here in person to respond to any and every question the committee would put before him.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

But David Gork was here the day you were here.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

No, David Gork came after I did. I was here on the 21st of—