Public Safety Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I understand that perfectly.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Ms. Mourani, your time is up. Thank you very much.

Mr. Davies, you have seven minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Just today this committee received two very compelling letters from inmates who work at the Frontenac prison farm. I'm just going to quote from one of the letters. It says:

Each offender learns many skills on this farm, welding, training, forklift training, 1S6 milk production machine operation, mechanic training, producing well maintained milking cattle from birth to heifer to cow for milking and maintaining land for growing and good land production. Offenders also learn shipping & receiving skills, computer skills for production, registration, filing, cattle inventory and roll-ups for institutional orders of milk, juice and eggs.

I just want a quick answer from all of you. Do you agree with this sentiment?

[Ross Toller]

I agree that inmates do learn skills, as noted in the letter. However, when you talk about welding, the skills of those who are not in vocational welding are not credited as quantifiable hours toward an apprenticeship, which in my view would give them more employable skills down the line. But, yes, inmates do learn generic skills.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Good.

Do you have any plans to bring in welding ticketed programs then?

[Ross Toller]

Yes, a lot of the programs we are now looking at are apprenticeship types of programs with vocational hours that will lead toward vocational apprenticeships.

I should also note the employment aspect is but one aspect, as there are still inmates with other deficits, and there are many ongoing programs for substance abuse, violence prevention, and elements along that line, plus the educational component. Many inmates require certain levels of education as well.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Right, and I take it that you would agree with me that there are also a lot of other kinds of soft skills that inmates learn from prison farms: working together, responsibility, having to be at a certain place at a certain time, team work, and following instructions. Would it be fair to say that the prison farms and these kinds of operations deliver these kinds of skill sets to prisoners as well?

[Ross Toller]

All jobs that inmates work at, whether farm skills, cleaning jobs, or vocational training, afford those skills for inmates.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay. Let's get to something that might be unique about this.

As you know, we're doing a study on mental health, and there is a very high percentage of people in the federal correctional system who have a variety of mental health problems, combined with social and cultural deficits. I am told that working with animals is something that can be therapeutic. It can be very helpful for a person who has had difficulty with attachments, people with anger management issues. So working with animals and forming those attachments can be very therapeutic and helpful for those people.

Am I wrong?

[Ross Toller]

We have no programs right now that lend themselves toward mental health improvement based on working with animals.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Should we?

[Ross Toller]

I think that is a matter of looking at research and what's available and giving that some consideration.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Prison farms have operated in this country in one form or another for 100 years. Suddenly we have a decision taken to shut them down. I've been to 20 institutions over the past six months. Not one person I have spoken to at an institution, from guards to wardens to inmates--not one person, and I've talked to hundreds of people to this point--said they favour shutting down prison farms as a good idea.

Do you know anybody in the correctional system who thinks it's a positive development for corrections in this country to shut down the prison farm program?

[Ross Toller]

I think it's a very positive aspect in terms of the public safety results, and that is what we've been talking about here, the relativity of obtaining an employable skill. It is very intuitive and very well understood that if you gain employment, the likelihood of recidivism is less.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

That may be, but I'm not sure it answers my question.

It is just that I can't find anybody who actually works in corrections who thinks it is a good idea to shut down prison farms. What I am asking you is whether you are aware of any warden or any people in a position of authority within the correctional system who say this is a positive thing for corrections, that these things should be shut down and that corrections would be better in this country as a result.

[Ross Toller]

Yes, it is a positive thing in terms of public safety results.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

What do you mean by public safety results?

[Ross Toller]

I mentioned the ability of inmates to obtain employment in the first six months of their work, to have real, sustainable employment that can have them return to work as productive citizens. There's a very good correlation between recidivism and staying out in the community.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I agree with you, sir, but how does shutting down a program that delivers those things help to provide those skills?

[Ross Toller]

Because, as has been communicated here, the jobs available in agricultural work right now are very wanting, whereas other jobs in vocational training right now are in strong demand, to the point where in some cases we know that supply will not be able to be filled until 2015. There's a market for inmates to gain employable skills.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

My grandfather was a homesteader in Alberta. He was a blacksmith and he worked on a farm. He told me that working on a farm delivers just about every kind of skill set you could possibly imagine. I would put to you that working in this kind of environment is very beneficial for prisoners in finding work elsewhere, not only for the hard skills they have, but also for the softer skills I mentioned earlier.

What's going to replace this program? I want to know what program, where, and when it's anticipated would replace these programs and would develop the kinds of skills you think are necessary.

[Ross Toller]

I'll speak to you about some of the planning elements for the Ontario region, and perhaps Mr. Sargent can speak to the other ones we have.

One of the elements we're looking at right now at Frontenac Institution is a CORCAN demolition program. This will be third-party certification in construction skills. This will include carpentry, asbestos removal, safety training, and workplace hazard training. The thing we're looking at is CORCAN's construction. This has been ongoing, but we're exploring avenues for minimum security inmates to work in construction certification and do project proposals. This will create opportunities for the hours they log to be considered against apprenticeships.

In office trailer construction, market survey shows demand. This will generate carpentry, welding, electrical, and plumbing skills.

In commercial laundry, market survey shows demand. Skills development would be in computerized equipment, inventory control, and shipping and receiving.

Again, we will continue with our other internal jobs—groundskeepers, maintenance staff, cleaners, and kitchen staff.

The programs I mentioned before and some educational ones are what we're looking at.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

When will these programs be put in place, and how many prisoners will participate?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

There's time for a quick response.

[Ross Toller]

Fourteen, 24, 15 to 20, 10 to 12--they're all under consideration. If I had time to get to the Pittsburgh Institution...some have started in some of the areas.