Transport Committee on Jan. 28th, 2026

[Jeff Hall]

I would say it's more recent, yes, but I would also say that the number is growing because of the benefits of it, or what they refer to as the benefits of it.

[Will Greaves, Liberal, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Ludwig, thank you for being here with us this afternoon.

Previous witnesses to this committee have shared testimony that they tried to meet with the provincial Ministry of Transportation in Ontario on issues related to enforcement and road safety but have not had a lot of success. Could you speak to your firm's experience in trying to engage with MTO in Ontario to express the concerns that you've raised about safety and enforcement?

[Michael Ludwig]

It's rather interesting. Recently we were a CVOR “excellent” carrier. We're now off by 1.3% and have lost our excellent carrier status. When we were excellent, because we run a lot in the QEW corridor, we were hunted relentlessly by law enforcement officers, with scales at Vineland and Oakville constantly trying to find something wrong with our trucks. Inevitably, if they couldn't find something, we would get what would be called “chafing air lines”, which is an indefensible action, but it goes against your CVOR record.

Once our record dropped us from “excellent” to “satisfactory”, the number of inspections that we endure has decreased to almost zero. We went down from 40 to 60 a month to zero to 10 a month. I guess that's the way MTO likes to treat their better carriers. You're hunted relentlessly until you fail.

In speaking with other ministry people, I have had successes in speaking with people in London on particular issues. I have had no successes at all in speaking with MTO people in Hamilton on other issues. It's kind of a crapshoot.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Greaves, and thank you, Mr. Ludwig.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today.

I am happy…. In fact, it’s an odd way to say it. I should instead say that I’m unhappy to note that the situation reported to me by people in the industry in Quebec seems quite comparable to what you’re telling us today. Some witnesses who came to testify here before the committee told us that there was no problem, that everything was fine and that the Driver Inc. model was one of the seven wonders of the world. I’m glad to hear a different tune today.

Based on your experience, do you feel that the rise of the Driver Inc. phenomenon is related to the increase in accidents on the roads? If so, what connection can be made between the two?

Mr. Ludwig can start answering the question. Mr. Hall may then have some comments to add.

[Michael Ludwig]

Does Driver Inc. lead to safety problems? That's what I understand you're asking.

Yes, there is no question that it leads to safety problems. A Driver Inc. driver could come and drive for me, and I would know that he has put in his 14-hour shift. Then he could drive over to Jeff's place and drive for him and put in another 14 hours, and nobody knows that this man has just worked for 28 hours straight with no sleep. Clearly, that's a problem out there on the streets.

Driver Inc. drivers are made responsible for equipment they don't own. If the driver is in an accident, where do the police, the MTO, SAAQ or whoever else go to find the maintenance records, the hours-of-service records, the qualification records—everything that we legitimate carriers, when you ask for them, can have for you in 10 minutes? They're all scanned—all the maintenance records, everything. You can't do that with a Driver Inc. fleet, because that information is simply not readily available.

These people know that, and they get away with driving junk and not caring about who they run into, who they run over.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Witnesses told us at the committee that there were people who no longer wanted to drive due to the risks. Former drivers are apparently leaving the industry because it has become impossible.

Have you experienced that? Is this something that’s been reported to you by drivers? People are apparently leaving the industry due to the large number of incompetent drivers and the Driver Inc. model.

[Michael Ludwig]

Yes, absolutely, it is.

I don't get that too much with my drivers, because we drive in a different area, but I can imagine Jeff's drivers, who have to drive up Highway 11 and Highway 17 on the Trans-Canada, going that way.

It's like murderers' row. It's a terrible thing to say, but the chances of a driver getting in an accident up there are probably 10 times what they are here, maybe more. It's inevitable that you're going to get into one.

I would think that if you drove up there for five years, you would have at least one, and it wouldn't be your fault. Someone would run into you, and typically, it's another truck. When another truck, ranging anywhere from 80,000 to 140,000 pounds, runs into you at 100 or 105 kilometres an hour, you can imagine that there are not going to be too many survivors.

Do you want to be one of those statistics? I don't, and not a lot of drivers do. I understand why they want to get out.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Mr. Hall, would you like to add any comments?

[Jeff Hall]

Yes, I do, absolutely.

One leads to the next. Driver Inc. is tax evasion. Driver Inc. then leads to equipment maintenance evasion. It leads to hauling illegal loads, employing—not employing, but hiring—illegal people. It's all blended in together.

Have we lost drivers who are afraid to go to northern Ontario? I'll use northern Ontario specifically, because it's near and dear to me. Absolutely, we have. The calibre of driver has decreased exponentially across the country. It's exaggerated in northern Ontario, specifically in the area along the east end of Lake Superior, which I mentioned to you. You have wildlife to contend with. You have weather, hills, inexperienced drivers and poorly maintained roads. One definitely blends into the other.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

What proportion of the industry does the Driver Inc. model account for, according to your estimates? Is it 5%? Is it marginal? Is it 10%, 50%? In fact, do you have a rough idea of the scale of the problem?

[Michael Ludwig]

Do I have...?

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I mean the percentage.

[Michael Ludwig]

You're asking the percentage of drivers in that area who are Driver Inc.

There are quite a few. At one time, there were companies that would take the mileage from a mileage program that said it was x number of miles from Toronto to Vancouver and it should take 53.4 hours to drive that route, so they would pay the minimum wage for that number of hours. Well, it—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ludwig.

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

We'll go to Mr. Motz.

Mr. Motz, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses.

Stacey, it's nice to see you. I'm going to keep you busy for the next five minutes. It's great to have you as a witness.

You bring an issue different from Driver Inc. to this whole trucking conversation. I was intrigued to hear about the idea behind the bonding and the failure to have security bonds. You touched on it before you relinquished your time.

In your view, what's the impact on road safety, on the manufacturers, on carriers and on market fairness of having carriers who aren't bonded or having bonding brokers, freight brokers, who aren't secured?

[Stacey Horlings]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll share with you a simple scenario.

Bob was sitting in his basement one day and was talking to a friend, Scott. Scott works at a manufacturing plant and expressed his struggle with trying to find a truck for a shipment leaving his facility.

Wouldn't you know it? Bob is now selling loads that his buddy Scott gave him to trucking companies. Bob just opened up his computer and called himself a freight broker.

Bob puts the load on the load board. He's not trained. He's not experienced in finding qualified carriers. The only thing Bob really cares about is how much money he makes at the end of the day.

Bob places the load with ABC Trucking Company for $800. ABC Trucking needs this load to get the driver back home. Bob invoices his buddy for $2,500, and Bob just made $1,700 with no concern about who has been entrusted with that load or who's behind the wheel.

This tends to relate to Driver Inc. We need to know who's behind the wheel.

Bob's also irresponsible. He takes his friends out and spends all the money, even the $800 to pay ABC Trucking.

That's an exact scenario of what it looks like with a broker—some brokers, I should add.

There are three issues here.

The first is that ABC didn't get paid, and financial pressures force carriers to cut corners and hire underqualified drivers and delay critical repairs and maintenance.

Second, Bob can operate without any training or industry knowledge, and he has no financial risk of his own. He doesn't employ drivers, yet he controls the decisions that directly impact who's on the road.

The last thing is the broker boards. They're not required to have any oversight. The load boards collect $800 a month from ABC Trucking Company and they collect $800 from Bob. As long as both parties continue to pay, the system functions financially.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

What you're saying, and you said it briefly, is that the scam by the freight brokers in not having security goes hand in hand with Driver Inc. and the challenges we have with unscrupulous drivers and companies that follow along.

It's probably impossible to put an economic figure on this. You talked about road safety, and the other gentlemen from Ludwig and Hall certainly covered some of that.

I'm solutions-oriented. You have this problem with Driver Inc. You have this problem with the brokers. What's the solution? How does the government properly introduce legislation or regulations to make this work?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Give a 15-second response, please.

[Stacey Horlings]

When responsibility is clearly defined and enforced at each level of a financial transaction in the trucking industry, safety stops being an afterthought and starts becoming the foundation of the system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Horlings.

Thank you very much, Mr. Motz.

Next we'll go to Ms. Nguyen.

Ms. Nguyen, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today and sharing some perspectives that we certainly need in this conversation about making sure that our roads continue to be safe.

We know, obviously, that in the enforcement of safety, we set the standards federally, but the enforcement is on the provincial side.

Mr. Hall, you talked about your experience in the interprovincial context. Given that experience, can you talk about some of the best practices you are seeing in provinces that are doing this well so that we can think about how we recommend more of these best practices across the country? What jurisdictions are doing roadside enforcement with an approach that you think is really effective?

[Jeff Hall]

To me, it's all about opening the scales. At West Hawk, which is on the Manitoba-Ontario border, the scale hardly ever closes. We don't have problems of poorly maintained roads, poorly operated trucks. They get into Winnipeg, but when you go west out of Winnipeg, this ends.

Open up the scales. The province has invested millions of dollars into a few new scales. There's one just outside Thunder Bay right now that has visibility of traffic going both ways for probably two miles. It's open, I'm going to say, eight hours a day, maybe four days a week. There's a truck stop two miles away from it, so if a driver knows he can't pass the safety and knows he's out of hours, he sits there in the truck stop at Pass Lake and waits for the lights to stop flashing. Then he carries on.

It's so easy for these guys to operate. If the scales were open 24-7—not just in Ontario but in every province—we would all be safer, and I don't just mean truckers. I mean that everybody would be safer.

[Chi Nguyen, Liberal, Spadina—Harbourfront, ON]

I'm curious about whether the other witnesses have anything to add to that—good practices or considerations that we might share with other levels of government or provinces that we do this work with.

[Michael Ludwig]

Do more audits, definitely. I'm going to use MTO as an example. Loosen the purse strings a bit. Hire more inspectors. Train inspectors better. Hire more auditors. Get out there. Get into the trucking industry everywhere, and get things done.

As a quick example, at the CP Rail terminal in Vaughan, you would be hard pressed to find an MTO officer anywhere near there. Just have a look at the equipment that runs in and out of there. That could be “fine city” all day long if law enforcement were to show up and do their job.