Evidence of meeting #56 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interference.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stéphane Perrault  Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Caroline Simard  Commissioner of Canada Elections, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
David Vigneault  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Michelle Tessier  Deputy Director, Operations, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Commissioner Michael Duheme  Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Caroline Xavier  Chief, Communications Security Establishment
David Morrison  Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Rob Stewart  Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Miriam Burke

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

With all due respect, Mr. Morrison, I asked you a simple question, but you are beating around the bush.

It is impossible to reach the threshold you have set because it is too high. What matters is what happens during the election campaign because interference can really affect the outcome of the vote in a riding. I'm not referring to the integrity of the democratic process, I'm talking about the impact on the ground. You will never get everyone to agree on getting involved during that period of time.

Madam Chair, I think my colleague would like to ask a final question.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Mr. Morrison, how many PRC diplomats were expelled from Canada in 2019?

1:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

None that I'm aware of.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

What about in 2020?

1:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

None that I'm aware of.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

What about in 2021?

1:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

None that I'm aware of.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

How about in 2022?

1:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

None that I'm aware of.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Zero. Zero. Zero. Zero.

This is clearly a government that doesn't take foreign interference by Beijing seriously.

1:20 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

I've already given a response on the diplomatic tool kit we have. I characterize expulsion, or persona non grata, as a fairly heavy tool. I am absolutely certain that, if we had concrete evidence of electoral interference that we could present to the officials of any government, our government would take the appropriate action on expulsions.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Mr. Gerretsen, go ahead.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, Mr. Morrison, I want to apologize for what you've been subject to today, particularly in the last few rants.

I can tell you—somebody who occupies himself completely and entirely with the running of an election during a writ period—that it gives me great comfort to know there are people like you who are watching over the democratic process in our country during those times, and I mean that genuinely. We don't have time for that, and the government doesn't have time for that. The most ideal time for a foreign influencer to act upon our democracy would be then, and knowing that there's a panel in place to safeguard that, and act where appropriate, is truly valued by many members of Parliament—I would say a vast majority—despite the way you've been treated today in terms of identifying the quality of your work.

Mr. Morrison, I want to go back to something you said. I reviewed it, and you said:

intelligence rarely paints a full, concrete or actionable picture. Intelligence almost always comes heavily caveated and qualified in ways designed to caution consumers such as me from jumping to conclusions, while at the same time helping us at least to gain a little more awareness.

An example would be a report based on “an uncorroborated source of unknown reliability”. In layman's terms, I would call this a report based on rumour.

What you're basically saying, if I understand you correctly, is that you have multiple reports of intelligence coming across your desk. Some of them could turn out to be quite legitimate and verified based on how you assess the variables and the caveats that go into that, but some of them could be complete nonsense, unreliable and baseless. Is that correct?

1:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

I will respond by saying that I'm glad all of the reports come across my desk because they help me and my colleagues form a better picture of what may be going on in the shadows. So—

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I'm really sorry, but I'm limited on time, and I have a number of questions for you.

Is it true that some reports would be legit, and some wouldn't be legit?

1:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

It is accurate to say that sometimes we see a report with allegations that we say need to be followed up on or that seem alarming, and that report is followed up on because it is alarming, but it turns out that nothing comes of it, so yes, that is correct.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Is it safe to say that the report that is apparently the bombshell report Global News got a hold of, and is basing this entire circus on, could be a report that was really just a rumour?

1:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

I am not going to speculate on any particular reports. I've tried to give a comprehensive answer as to why there are reports circulating in the press and on social media, and why I and Mr. Stewart can say—with, I believe, absolute confidence—that Canada and Canadians can have full confidence in the results of the recent election.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Mr. Morrison, who stands to gain the most from this circus?

1:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

I can't speculate on that.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Is it safe to say that foreign actors stand to gain by watching us question our democracy like this?

1:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

David Morrison

I have already said in my prepared remarks, and in response to a couple of questions, that foreign adversaries do try to sow divisions within our society, and when those divisions call into question the very institutions and processes that keep us free and safe, I do think it's alarming.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

I have one final question. You can't deliver some information to us here because of the nature of that information. Would you be able to deliver that to NSICOP, the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians?

1:25 p.m.

Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Rob Stewart

Yes. They are able to receive classified material. They would be able to receive all of it.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Gerretsen Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON

Thank you, gentlemen.