Justice Committee on Dec. 9th, 2025

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

To your point, the problem is the word “confused”.

I kindly ask my Liberal colleagues to please bear with me.

If I could redraft the section, I would say, “a symbol that so nearly resembles a symbol described in paragraph (a) or (b) that it is likely to be that symbol.”

That's what Ms. Breese is saying the section tries to accomplish. It so nearly resembles a symbol that it is meant to be that symbol, as opposed to being confused with that symbol. I'm right on this one.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Mr. Baber.

Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

My colleague Mr. Baber is very confident in his legal understanding of statute interpretation.

To all the officials here, were any of you responsible for the final wording in proposed paragraph (c)? Did anyone draft that?

[Joanna Wells, Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

We did participate in the drafting.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

You did participate in the drafting.

[Joanna Wells]

Yes. That's one of our roles as policy counsel: to work with our legislative drafters to put the minister's policy into legislative text.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

I want to circle back to your latter comment that if there were amendments to the language, that would be a policy decision. Are you not policy decision-makers at the Department of Justice, or are you just responsible for drafting legislation?

[Marianne Breese]

We provide advice to the minister, who gives policy direction, and then we put that into text.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

What was the genesis of that particular clause? Did you consult with legal stakeholders? Did you consult with the judiciary? Did you consult with academics, law professors—anything like that? Did it come from specific ethnic minorities? Were you persuaded one way or the other in terms of the language to be used? I'd be very interested in your response.

[Joanna Wells]

I can speak to this one.

I understand the concern is specifically targeted to this particular provision. This provision was developed, as Ms. Breese said, to try to close what was thought to be the risk of a loophole that could be created in the offence.

Generally, we don't consult on the specific wording for an offence like this, although I know there were broad consultations on the broader policy objective of Bill C-9.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

What real-world examples can you give me that would support the inclusion of this clause, ones that came from law enforcement where they said they were missing an important tool in their tool box to tackle individuals who are demonstrating on our streets, harassing members of religious communities and using symbols, but they don't know whether they're an exact replica of something that is within the regs or there's been a slight modification?

Did you get specific input? Do you have examples of cases where police officers were presented a choice: “Should I or shouldn't I charge?” If they said they couldn't charge because they were missing a tool in their tool box, is this designed to remedy that?

[Marianne Breese]

Generally, the feedback we have received is that police officers are looking for clear tools to address this type of conduct—a clear red line as to what types of symbols, for example, could be captured by this type of offence.

In terms of examples of how this could materialize, if on a Hezbollah flag or Hamas flag the background colours were changed, that flag was being waved in a public place and the person waving it was also chanting slogans that directly targeted an identifiable group—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Aren't there criminal laws already in the books to address the particular example you just gave, which is incitement to hatred?

[Marianne Breese]

Perhaps I could finish this one first. If there's a more limited definition of the symbols in proposed paragraphs (a) and (b), then this offence would be precluded.

However, to your point, there are other tools in the Criminal Code—other hate propaganda offences that could potentially apply—depending on the case at hand. Communicated statements, for the purpose of section 319 offences, include visible representations and signs.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant South—Six Nations, ON]

Here's the problem. What I'm about to say to you right now is certainly not new to you if you've been following the debate in the House or the debate here in this particular committee. We would love to completely reject every aspect of Bill C-9. It is a flawed piece of legislation, because there are existing laws that already deal with the multitude of disturbances we have seen over the last two years.

It's not an issue of a want of criminal legislation or specific tools for law enforcement. There is a lack of will among law enforcement. I have gone on tour. I'm still touring across the country, talking to stakeholders. I'm absolutely surprised and stunned by the number of examples of lawlessness on the streets where police have been directly told by their municipal leaders to abandon their number one sworn responsibility to enforce our laws and simply be peacekeepers.

I'm not going to identify the city. I'm not going to out the police service, but I spoke to a number of Jewish leaders in this particular community. They explained to me, with example after example, that pro-Palestinian or pro-Hamas protesters specifically spat on Jewish individuals who simply wanted to attend their synagogue. It was right in the presence of police officers. That's intimidation. That's assault. They have the tools; they're just not enforcing.

I appreciate your explanation. You've given me some hope that you have done your due diligence. I would never accuse you of not exercising due diligence. This is a touchy area, but I'm concerned that police asking for more and more provisions to deal with thorny issues may not ultimately achieve what you're hoping to achieve and what the Liberal government hopes to achieve if we have a lack of will to enforce.

The fact that we've had demonstrations lasting two years in our country is absolutely pathetic. It puts this country in a really difficult position on the world stage. I've read and watched news reports from all over the world. The ability of government leaders and law enforcement to take immediate, concrete steps to deal with this lawlessness.... That is something this country did not do. It's shameful. As a former member of the legal community, I'm disgusted that this has happened in my country.

That's what I'm concerned about. If you give a new tool to law enforcement—one that I think is still fraught with confusion—is it up to police to determine whether it is clearly in line with a symbol that falls within the regulation, or is it something that closely resembles that? Is this confusing? I can see so many red flags in the mind of a young police officer.

Despite leadership saying, “We want this”, I don't think it's going to have the desired impact. That is all the more reason, in my view, to always seek clarity and precision, and to strive for black and white language when we're dealing with anything in the Criminal Code of Canada.

I appreciate all your responses, but I'm still not satisfied that this will address the issues that present themselves.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, James Maloney]

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Next I have Mr. Lawton, and then Ms. Lattanzio.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

To the officials, I want to make this less abstract for the time being, because we know in the context of the last two years that there have been a number of protests on Middle Eastern politics in communities across the country.

Let's say a listed terrorist entity claims as a symbol the keffiyeh, and this becomes a symbol that's closely associated with a listed entity. Would a keffiyeh be viewed, or could it be viewed, under this legislation as a hate symbol?

[Marianne Breese]

Taking a step back, we'd have to look back on.... It's always a factual analysis. The test established here in the provision would be what it is principally used for or associated with. That would be about showing there is a close nexus between the listed group and the symbol.

I can't provide a yes-or-no response as to whether that symbol would be associated. Again, it really is a determination for law enforcement to make based on available evidence. That's as far as I can take it.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Per your answer, you're now saying there would be a grey area where that could be.... Because you can't say no, you're basically saying that a keffiyeh, under this, could be a hate symbol if there were a listed entity that had associated itself with that symbol.

[Marianne Breese]

Based on available evidence, if the facts at hand demonstrated that that symbol was principally used by and associated with a listed entity—and that's a determination that can only be made by law enforcement and prosecutors after a full investigation—then perhaps, but I cannot say today whether factually it is principally used by or associated with a listed entity. That nexus is a factual determination.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Iran has been acknowledged as a state sponsor of terror. Could waving an Iranian flag attract the same scrutiny? Could it be viewed as a hate symbol?

I'm sorry; that question is for the officials.

[Marianne Breese]

I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

Yes.

Iran has been acknowledged as a state sponsor of terror. Could an Iranian flag be captured as a hate symbol by this definition?

[Marianne Breese]

Iran is not a listed entity under the terrorism listing regime in the Criminal Code.

[Andrew Lawton, Conservative, Elgin—St. Thomas—London South, ON]

When we talk about like symbols, I realize we are discussing one particular amendment here, but we have to look, at various points, at Bill C-9 in its totality, so if you'll indulge me, Chair, I have to ask about other parts of the bill, such as—